oaros

In the end my shroud came out stright up, tilting didn't work for me.

Actually hang on, I went over your photo #1 and #3 again. If I see it correctly you have a separate ATF cooler but the oil cooler integrated into radiator on the passenger side.

Mine has the separate oil cooler under the main radiator. So you have oil lines on both sides. I suspect you'll have to loosen at least one side. I don't think there is RHD/LHD issue with the lines at the radiator - someone with a 87-88 auto who has a done TB job will hopefully be along soon.

In the meantime have a close look at your ATF flexible cooler lines, mine had cracks near the crimp where there was no protective sheath covering. So, you may find the ATF lines will come out anyway for rebuilding - all problems solved then and WYAIT gods appeased as well.

gearz

This post brings back memories of taking mine out the first time. I was frustrated a bit too.
I have an automatic S4 and I had to remove the upper oil cooler line radiator fitting and move the hose out of the way just a bit to get my shroud out. Get the wrenches to do it. No need to remove the trans cooler lines. You're almost there!

fraggle

At least one of the pics shows the rad still bolted in place. Remove those and the rad will move also and give you more room. Really, if you drained it already pulling it the rest of the way is a 5 minute job and you won't be worrying about damaging it the entire time.

Jerry Feather

If you are doing this project without a print out of John Pirtle's 175 step instruction you are making a big mistake. Go the 928 International's web site and go to the tips section and click on the second of the two listed timing belt links. In it you will see that what has already been told here about loosening the oil line appears to be the one thing you are not doing which I think is critical to get the fans out. Then follow it step by step and you can have this done in a long but fairly casual weekend, and that includes a lot of extra stuff like new belts all around, rebuild the tensioner, rebuild the little roller carrier under the crank pully, maybe rebuild/reseal the power steering pump, and new ignition stuff.

Jerry Feather

MainePorsche

I second Jerry's recommendation. The 'Pirtle Paper' is especially good for first timer. I still use it to keep me in sequence.

Also you would have seen 32 and 27mm wrenchs to be used to loosen lines to facilitate lift of the shroud.

Bill Ball

I leave the radiator in place. For automatics through 1989 you need to unfasten and push back out of the way the top oil cooler line at the radiator using the 32 and 27mm wrenches as Merlin described as well as loosen the PS reservoir. You can maneuver the shroud around everything else but that. It makes it easier if you drain the radiator and pull the radiator hoses, but it's not necessary at this point, although you pull them later in the TB job anyway. I pull the shroud out tilted, left side up, observing for points of contact that require some maneuvering around, dropping the right side down below the radiator at some point in the removal. It will only come straight up in 1990+ where the left sidetank has no fittings, otherwise tilting is needed to clear the sidetank fittings. The bottom oil line fitting obstructs the lower left corner of the shroud unless you work around it by pushing the shroud back away from it. Sometimes it's real easy, sometimes it's a bit of a struggle. If the alternator or its cassette is an obstruction, drop it down. The alternator/PS pump cassette needs to come down later anyway as it blocks removal of the left side cover.

Most of the guide writers simplify the procedure description by glossing over these and other obstacles and the hours they probably spent getting around them too. They make it look so simple. It isn't. Here's my tips based on a bunch of those frustrations. I haven't covered the fan shroud removal, but based on your struggle, I should add it. Wait till you get to installing the new belt on the cam gears and have to deal with getting it on the right gear teeth. Sometimes it's right on the first time; other times it takes a few tries.

http://www.billsworkshop.com/P928S4/...rces-noWSM.pdf

dr bob

I remove the PS reservoir clamp so the reservoir can swing to the rear and down slightly. The top oil cooler hose comes off. This is the top left (left is left looking from the rear of the car) hose. It gets moved to the rear and down, with a plastic bag wrapped around the end and tied there to catch any stray drips. Wiring harness is removed from the fan console completely and laid in front of the radiator. Two bolts attach the fan console at the top of the radiator, and there are two locating tabs on the top. There are additional tabs at the bottom that index into the bottom of the radiator. With the coolant hoses removed, the fan console comes almost straight up against the rear of the radiator. There are minor clearance issues at the top auto trans cooler hose, so that side (right side of the car) the fan console is moved only slightly to the rear to clear the nut that secures that top hose. Then pull up smartly and the fan console will come clear and can be removed.

Beware the somewhat fragile tabs that locate the fan console top and bottom. They are often broken during R&R. Top ones when using the wrong wrenches on the cooler lines. Bottoms when refitting the fans. For install I usually set the fan in place, then roll underneath to pull it down the last bit and engage those bottom tabs. Then back to the top, lift it clear of the bottom tabs, forward at the top so the top tabs fit over the radiator, down into place, and install the two retaining bolts. Wiring gets dropped over the top, fitted from the bottom starting at the fan motor connection. and finally secured from the top in the frame ribs.

Mrmerlin

Emboss i took the time to write this for you so you would follow it,

If you do follow this then you will be able to remove the fans without damaging them,
You do want to remove the radiator so you will have room to work,
once you poke a hole in the rad then it has to come out anyway
a repost of the previous instructions.......

EMBOS here is what you need to do to remove the fan assembly first you need a 32 MM and 27 MM wrench set
Drain the coolant from the radiator via the blue drain plug remove the upper and lower radiator hoses ,
remove both ends of the 1 inch hose from the water bridge to the fenderwell hard line,
remove the smaller vent line from the waterbridge to the coolant bottle
NOTE all of the lines need to be removed from the water bridge .

The air pump line since you have it out can pretty much be left sitting where it is for now.

Remove the clamp on the power steering reservoir, and let it stay where it is, the fan shroud will push it out of the way as you lift it.
NOTE now would be a good time to consider replacing it,
as well the the 2 flex lines that go to it,
you can drain the system be removing the 2 sway bar clamps to chassis, then drop it down some,
then 2 Banjo bolts that hold the hoses to the bottom of the rack, just get new sealing washers you need 4 of them or the rack will leak,
turn the wheels lock to lock to drain the rack with the banjos removed.

Onwards.
pull the 2 bolts that hold the fan shroud then remove the the fan shroud wire harness and let it hang away from the car (this runs under the airpump hose)
then lift the fan shroud up about 2 inches and then push it back then you can see the tops of the ATF cooler lines and the oil cooler lines.
With the wrenches carefully slide them down tween the fan shroud and radiator
NOTE you could slide in a piece of cardboard to protect the radiator core.

remove both of these connections by holding the 27 mm wrench and unscrewing the 32 mm cap nut.
Once these lines are loose the ATF can be pushed to the side the Oil line should be bent back and tucked under the PS reservoir.
Also remove the red wire that connects just in front of the ABS unit make sure the battery is disconnected first as this wire is always hot with battery connected
With all of this done,
the fans should be able to be lifted upwards and pushed back slightly at the same time to clear the lines,
NOTE you may find that the housing is hitting on the fat AC line
if so then gently push the top portion of the hard line back the line will bend so be careful you dont push too hard you only need a few MM of clearance to get the fans out.

With the shroud out then disconnect the other cooler lines from the bottom of the radiator.
have drain pans ready to catch the oil


Then disconnect the front temp sensor wires from the left front of the radiator.

remove the radiator support brackets and the vent hose then lift out the radiator
NOTE it will still have some coolant in it so be wary that about 1/2 liter will still be
able to spillout.

Emboss

Well, the morning shopping trip was not a success. None of the usual suspects have a 27 mm open-ended wrench (or an adjustable wrench that goes to 27 mm) that is thin enough to fit in the space. Same issue as the damn block coolant drain plug: consumer places can't get the right socket, trade places that have the right socket won't talk to you unless you're a business (not to mention aren't open on weekends), overseas places won't ship, and I don't know any mechanics well enough to ask them to bend the rules and act as a middleman for me.

After doing a trial run on a spare wrench, the angle grinder approach appears to work, though I'll need to find a better way of holding the wrench in place (thought I had it figured out, until it disappeared off into the trees).

Won't have another weekend free until the end of September, so keen to make at least some progress today ...

I understand, but I'm getting a lot of conflicting and/or incomplete information here. I'd also prefer not to dismantle things that really don't need to be dismantled. Finally, there's things in your writeup that aren't any clearer than the guides:

• The "red wire that connects just in front of the ABS unit" doesn't really help - the thing that matches this description the closest are the three red wires attached to the jumper post.
• "disconnect the front temp sensor wires from the left front of the radiator" - again, I'm not sure what this is referring to as there is, as far as I can tell after a reasonably close inspection, nothing attached to the left front side of the radiator.
• No mention is made of detaching the bonnet release cable from the radiator. A quick inspection reveals this to be a potentially non-trivial exercise.

So, no offense, but from my point of view, it's just another guide from which to draw information, but not treat as gospel.

MainePorsche

Go to 928 International site and use Pirtle's guide. Sounds like you really need to do this. There are also excellent photos text. There is a list of what you will need before you start(ed)..etc.

MainePorsche

I remember my first big job... nerve wracking when you are flying solo.
Where are you now my friend ?

Mrmerlin

The "red wire that connects just in front of the ABS unit" doesn't really help - the thing that matches this description the closest are the three red wires attached to the jumper post.
"disconnect the front temp sensor wires from the left front of the radiator" - again, I'm not sure what this is referring to as there is, as far as I can tell after a reasonably close inspection, nothing attached to the left front side of the radiator.
No mention is made of detaching the bonnet release cable from the radiator. A quick inspection reveals this to be a potentially non-trivial exercise.
OK
The red wire that is for the ABS is on the driver side of the car just in front of the power steering reservoir,( look in front of the PS tank you will see a thick red wire)
this wire has to be disconnected if you want to remove the timing belt,
as its part of the harness that passes through the belt.

On the front of the radiator on the bottom front of the tank there is a blue Bosch connector this must be removed before you lift the radiator out get to it by going through the grill.
( look under the headlight motor it there on the bottom of the end tank)
There isnt any mention of a bonnet release it was infact referring to the bleeder line thats attached to the top of the radiator
( the hose thats attached to the top of the radiator)

I do understand you not wanting to take things apart any more than necessary,
BUT removing the radiator gives you plenty of room to work,
and also will give you a chance to inspect the end tank for leaks,
and flush out all of the debris between the condenser and the radiator,
As well as flush out the radiator,
NOTE it is very easy to poke a hole in the radiator and once this is done it means a trip to the repair shop for some soldering.

Emboss

I am using Pirtle's guide, and like the others it's not completely correct for my car, and vague in places. For example, he makes no mention of removing the left hand distributor cap or alternator belt prior to removing the fan shroud, both of which are required on my car. Not to mention "attempt with much conviction to remove the fan shroud" isn't very helpful, and no mention is made at all about the A/C line.

The list of tools, while useful, doesn't completely cover things. For example, I have a 13 mm socket piece and a 27 mm wrench. Neither can be used where needed (block coolant drain plug and oil cooler line respectively) due to clearance issues. This means that a weekend of work usually translates to a couple hours of progress on Saturday morning, followed by spending the rest of the weekend trying to cook up something to replace the tool that stores either don't have or won't sell to me.

I've spent a number of years using various tools to do things with expensive equipment, or things that can kill people (or both). You have a list of steps, which may be incorrect or incomplete, so you sit down at the start and work your way through each step visually, seeing if it matches up with reality. Once you've figured out that it's correct, or any determined any adjustments to the process that need to be made prior to starting, you pick up the tools and get to work. While slow, it's effective, and I'm using much the same approach here. The problem I'm discovering is that previously, the machine was usually put together using a similar if not identical set of tools to the ones I had access to. This is not the case here, where I only discover that my 27 mm wrench isn't the same as the 27 mm wrench Pirtle was using in the middle of the job, and so progress grinds to a halt until a sufficiently identical 27 mm wrench is bought or built. It's incredibly frustrating as you can probably tell by my posts.

Mrmerlin

what i wrote for you is made especially for your year of car,
the car i posted a picture of is also an 88

Emboss

Ah, the harness clue helps here. Is the wire you're referring to the orange-brown-that-may-have-been-red-in-a-previous-life as is visible in the photo at the bottom of the first page?

Ah, yes, I see it now. Thanks. Thought it ran past the radiator with the other couple of hard-lines it's with.

That's a LHD/RHD issue I think. There is no hose running along the top of the radiator - instead it runs directly back up the left hand side of the engine bay. Given that all the heater core lines are shown going to the right, and mine all go to the left (past the P/S reservoir) my guess is that the heater core switches sides in the conversion.

The bonnet release is likely a LHD/RHD thing - the release handle position obviously switches sides, and the cable crosses the engine bay under the black strip attached to the radiator (the thing that the bleeder line rests on in your photo). It's also possibly a previous-guy-was-an-idiot issue since it loops over the top of the radiator on the right hand side. It may be possible to maneuver the radiator clear, but it looks like there's a good chance the cable will need to be disconnected and removed.

This is what I was meaning by taking these things as a guide. There are a number of year-to-year, LHD/RHD, and option (manual/auto, etc) variations which can jump up and bite you. I'm sure your guide is exactly correct for your car, and Pirtle's is exactly correct for his. Unfortunately, that doesn't always mean that either is exactly correct for any other particular car. Sometime's I'm nicely surprised - the inexplicable lack of interference between the flex plate bolts and the exhaust for example. Other times, not so much ...