blown 87

We like honest, humble, noobs, this group will eat a unknowing braggert alive, after a short period of intense fire of course.

I can tell by your posts you will be most welcome here.

FredR

Dear Mr Diesel Dude,

The golden rules for buying a 928 are pretty much the same as for any car but the penalties for ****-up are much greater than most!

1. You are going to purchase a great car for relatively cheap bucks but you are not going to buy cheap parts and/or maintenance. The average noob fails to understand this first point. I advise people to allow $5k for the things that invariably go wrong or need doing immediately on good examples. Put that on top of your purchase price and ask yourself if you are still interested [and this is for sound examples]- if so continue to next step.
2. Find the right car- Anything less than immaculate or near condition walk away from unless it is throw away bucks. If the PO's could not keep up with the cosmetics do you think they fared any better with the seriously expensive bits?
3. If possible try to purchase from a 928 enthusiast [aka from this list or similar] who knows the 928 and has looked after it. The example here of paying "twice the price" to get a sound example is not exceptional, it is probably close to the realistic "point at hand".
4. Beware of "cheap" 32V automatics. If you consider one ensure that someone who knows what he is doing checks it out for thrust bearing failure or the "potential for" thereof. If the engine is TBF'd you have a nice garden ornament until you shell out $6k plus for a replacement s/h engine and fitment [see recent thread]! Even then, at that price, the replacement engine probably has a risk element to it with no guarantees and need for further refurbishment on top. Fitting a s/h engine and getting it to where it needs to be is probably a $10k item by the time the project is complete and assuming you have a good one to start with.
5. If the PO cannot tell you when the timing belt and water pump were last done walk away. If it was last done more than 5 years ago probably better to walk away from it unless there is a damm good excuse.
6. Unless there is clear evidence to the contrary indicating "not necessary", plan on replacing: Tires, brake discs, pads, distributor covers, rotor arms, track rod ends, half shaft gaiters, belly pan [get an ally front one], fan motors, torque converter bearings [if auto], belts, torque tube bearings, ignition leads, fuel injectors, fuel pumps [2 number], a/c hoses, expansion valves and compressor seals, Mass air flow sensor, water hoses and most probably a radiator. That lot is basically why you need to allow $5k [as in point 1 above]. If it turns out you do not need them great. I dare say there are other items to consider but hoepfully you get the picture.
7. If the a/c system does not work as in blowing really cool air, then chances are there will be something expensively wrong. The really bad one is if the evaporator has gone- to gut the dash and put it back is a two day job for someone who knows what they are doing- 16 hours at 100 bucks an hour plus parts? A tired compressor and associated parts [hoses, drier, expansion valves etc] is going to cost you about 1 grand fitted if you are lucky [assuming evaporator OK]. If you do not need the a/c fine.

Add all these possibilities up and you can easily see where $10k [or more] you did not initially expect to spend can dissappear before you blink and/or see tarmac. If you think this is expensive try other exotics of the same vintage! 911 ownership is not a whole lot cheaper- just that earlier models up to 993 were air cooled so less bits to go wrong and you pay somewhat more to start with for a dare I say- "lesser" car [for the same vintage]!

After you reach this point of stability, then you can think of upgrades.

If you are prepared to deal with the above possibilities then please join the club- you are most welcome.

Just beware of some of the sob stories we have read on this list from newbies who purchased a "bargain"! Think of it as "rolling a dice" where the odds are stacked against you if you are in the $7k region for a S4. Chances are it is a $15k S4 and you simply do not know it before purchase.

A good buy is what I would call the 928S4[?] that Andrew Olsen sold not long ago. You might do well to look that thread up and speak to the gent who purchased it. I have not noticed anything posted on this purchase and doubtless he is still a happy punter but even so, I bet he will have spent some money on it by now- and that was doubtless a 928 with a good pedigree. AO- any feedback?


That you landed here before purchase is a good performance indicator for starters.

Regards, best wishes and good luck.

Fred R

Hilton

All good stuff Fred, except point 5 I don't think is relevant. If the car has an intact belt and runs, then in my opinion that's all that really matters as far as the timing belt system goes.

Its *far* safer to do (or have done) the timing belt yourself after purchase than trust whatever the PO or their receipt says, or the work their mechanic did on the timing belt job. If the belt is of unknown age, then by all means get the car trailered after purchase instead of risking driving it home, but even if enthusiast-owned, the first job a new 928 S4 owner should be doing is the complete timing belt job, and fuel lines. There are too many 928-unfamiliar mechanics who tighten the belt by "feel", or just replace the belt/rollers and ignore the important failure root causes like tensioner, cam gears, water pump, cam bolts, and more. (note - there are a very few mechanics/shops whose work I'd trust, and they frequent these forums too, even the one local to my house here in Australia).

The 5 year comment is relevant only in that the car hasn't been having regular servicing, but again, compared to the litany of other issues an aging 928 is going to have, even that isn't too bad to get over - fixing/rebuilding/replacing the broken mechanicals/electricals is still cheaper than poor cosmetics.

Otherwise, all pretty much spot on, and even as a serious DIY'er, mrdieseldude, you'll find out that the estimates for getting an S4 "running right" and reliable enough to be a daily driver, are spot on.

mickster

I bought an S4 that looked very good for $6600. It would have needed $4000-6000 in parts and $2000-3000 in labor minimum. Due to lack of space to store it and wait to work on it, it had to go. I would have spent about $1000 on the interior with a local shop that does interior reconditioning. If I wanted a new interior, $12500 in parts (all new leather, carpets, dynamat, dash, pod) and $2000 in labor. More if I want Alcantra or all of Champagne's upgrades.

If I had room for a lift and TIME-things might have been different. Now I need to find a more sorted car that I'm willing to spend for someone else to fix...

I probably will go for an 86.5 Manual or Auto as I LOVE the styling--first fell in love with it (love the S4 & GTS too) and as others have said, adding horsepower is pretty easy (relatively) with a few simple mods (Por'ken chips, x-pipe).

Michael

Jadz928

Fred, glad to see you posting. Great advice!
And you're crackin' me up with things you say that I don't hear often - punter, ****-up, and my fav "the trots" (from the other thread).

Yep, there is a big list of things you "just do it", even if you don't think it needs it.
I think folks often miss this point, and follow the more forgiving rule of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
My first year of ownership I followed the latter rule and paid for it with many trips on a roll-back truck. Following that, I became more aware of the general maintenance trends you are referring to.
The 20+ year old 928s contain many parts/components/systems which are near or at the the end of their service life. It is time to "just do it".
The more systemmatic approach has faired better for me.

For the OP, feel free to check out my list of service items performed over the past 2 1/2 years. This will help you get an idea of what Fred is referring to.
FWIW, this list also contains a bunch of not necessary "goodies" peppered in.
While I can understand why folks suggest focussing on the mechanics and staying away from the "goodies"... I don't know if I could have stayed enthused in the overall project without some "fun projects" to keep me going.
All I know is their advice would've better served my wallet. YMMV

Hopefully AO will pipe up.
This one ended up a fail, but due only to an over-zealous buyer.
It could've been a great success story if the buyers expectations we're inline with how the car was actually represented. It was an honest representation.
This does not preclude the buyer from performing due dilligence,
OR at minimum, reading the new visitor post at the top of this forum!
Buying from a rennlister is a good choice, but that does not mean you are relieved from doing your homework.

Don't be scared off Mrdeiseldude. We would prefer you come into this hobby with realistic expectations.
Ultimately, if you love the 928, you will give it all you got, because it give it back in spades!

FredR

Hilton,

The point I was alluding to is that if the owner cannot tell you when it was last changed then there is some chance it might grenade on the drive back home and on 32V models we all know what that means. My experience with timing belts is that they appear to suffer from lack of use as the rubber compounds loose their flexibility through lack of use just as tires do. Perhaps the problem is exaggerated in our hot climate which is why I limit use to 5 years. In all fairness it may be different in cooler climes but in some parts of the States I believe it gets just as hot as it does in the Mid East.

Similarly would you really want to buy a 928 from someone who does not know when the belt was changed assuming that the car is not under a full OEM dealer service history by now?

ps- how did you manage to write upside down in your avatar- scanned image? Very clever!

Regards

Landseer

I think value depends on your frame of reference.

I rolled the dice on an 86. $2000. Flat tire, oxidized red, looking abandoned behind the P dealer shop. Didn't even open the car and look inside until after buying it, while loading it on the flatbed. Didn't turn it over even.

Turned out very well. Elderly owner had just lost interest after owning it for over 20 years. $3500 more in standard parts and tires, and about 8 days of work and we have a very nice DD. Wife has put over 20K miles on it in three years and loves it.

Did it again with a 32V 85. A little more neglect and sitting, but an original owner car with only 71K miles. After $1900 purchase price (brokered through a rennlister -- who just wanted it to be in the right hands) and about $3600 parts its a strong DD. Had some crazy list of electrical issues that would have been fixed faster if I'd focused effort properly, but a great puzzle.

I look for cars that are owned by older adults who maintained them once, lost interest, never hot rodded them, and left all the parts complete on the car. Owners who really don't care about the money, just want the car to go to a good home. Guys who should have fixed it or ditched it years ago, but instead had a voice telling them to hold on longer.

Some people don't want to be bothered. I like the puzzle and the rush of the risk play.

mrdieseldude

Fred, glad to see you posting. Great advice!
And you're crackin' me up with things you say that I don't hear often - punter, ****-up, and my fav "the trots" (from the other thread).

I agree with Jim...love the vocab. FredR's hailing port may be from Oman, but I would guess he originally sailed from Britain. Anyway... can't tell you guys how much value your input has been. I am going to figure out how to print this entire thread and keep it with me as my Mantra.

One thing I don't understand re: 32V deferred maintenance - as long as the TB has never had a failure, why should I run from the car (assuming all else is OK). I mean I do understand that the TB could go, literally at any time, but assuming I was to flat bed it away (or roll the dice as I am too damned accustomed to...must change habit), and then immediately do the TB maintenance, what is wrong with that? Almost all of the cars I am seeing have had TB replacements at 4 years or longer.

PS - I don't have that cool "quote" thing down... the above cut and paste may have come out looking a bit strange... sorry about that.

Shane

No reason to run from lack of TB maintenance, I actually never cared one way or another since I wanted to do it myself to know it was done right and with the right parts.
To Quote someone you can click on the quote symbol in the lower right of their post or copy paste as you did and then highlight it and click on the quote button (looks like a little rectangular cartoon balloon). Or just wrap it with these:
[QUOTE] [ /QUOTE]

FredR

DD,

Yorkshire- Dewsbury to be precise- the dry humour ought to be a give away! You need a sense of humour to live in Dewsbury!

Apologies if give an impression of "doom and gloom" with these cars. As Jim says when you get them right they are awesome machines even by today's stds. Modify them to handle with the right wheels and tires, stiffen the suspension a bit, modify the alignment a tad, brace few things here and there and you have an exciting machine. No rice burner I have come across quite does the same for me as that big Vee 8 growl. I have pee'd off many new 911 and Coxster owners over here on our very modest track days and club runs. Straight line the 928 is "so so" these days unless you blow the engine a bit and then....

Indeed with respect to the timing belt again my colourful rendition was a bit overstated [Yorkshire habits die hard I fear!]. What I was really alluding to is to think long and hard about the type of ownership the car may have had in its second era of the aging process.

First generation owners are generally people who are heavy in the wallet area- a good chunk of whom are more caring of "what they are seen in" rather than appreciative of what their stash has enabled them to purchase. For these characters such cars are just another means to an end and after 2 or 3 years they typically trade 'em in for the latest and newest whatever with little or no passion for what they had. Most of these would have had the car serviced at the OEM dealer in days when they actually knew something about the car and the mechanics dutifully followed orders [or be shot] from Herr Ferdinand in ze fatherland. Much less so second owners etc. Today's owners are an eclectic mix of people who want "something for next to nothing" [us Yorkshire folk are renowned for this trait- that and rusty wallet hinges!] and die hard enthusiasts who appreciate the car for the excellent machine it is [such as our esteemed fellow listers -also applies to me as well].

Cars owned by poseurs who want to look good for next to nothing generally do not have much of the green stuff to spend on their cars and so skimp/omit to spend what is needed and when it is needed and just keep the car as long as it limps along often bearing no resemblance to what it really should be like. For sure I do not want to be snobby or derate such owners but it is a fact of life. That they appreciate the looks of and want to be seen in these superb cars is to be appreciated even by us "die hards". I have seen this over here and people cannot believe how well my car drives after driving other 928's which generally [amongst the few remaining] are sad to say real wuffers. A friend of mine has a very nice white 87 manual [the only one here] but apart from that the rest [less than 20 now I think] generally fit the profile I describe.

You may well pick up a good one for little bucks and I sure hope you can by random chance [probably more 928's in the States than the rest of the world?] but in any gamble you need to understand the odds against you. One of our listers purchased an amazing example in Brunei with virtually no miles on the clock- looked as though it just left the factory but he still had plenty to do to get it running correctly- 928's do not like to stand still. I still maintain that a well used and well maintained 928 is a better bet than a garage queen that has been been mechanically ignored. Find a garage queen pampered by a real enthusiast and generally you are going to pay top bucks.

Timing belt failure on a 32 valve motor is disastrous if it happens at revs and on a car that fits the profile I describe it can easily happen on the way home from the purchase and some of you chaps in the States can have a long drive home if you do not flat bed it. Freeze the car there and then and of course the problem can be eliminated but one has to ask what else is lurking if that one has not been taken care of.

Good luck

Fred R

EspritS4s

This forum is a great resource, and the people here make owning a 928 much more enjoyable if you take their advice seriously. I get frustrated sometimes with how poorly some of the other marque forums that I follow compare to Rennlist.

mrdieseldude

[QUOTE=Shane;8479036]
To Quote someone you can click on the quote symbol in the lower right of their post or copy paste as you did and then highlight it and click on the quote button (looks like a little rectangular cartoon balloon). Or just wrap it with these:
Shane - thanks for the quote tip... this is kind of a test to see if I got it down. Also, I dig the way you give your 928's the names of HOT German women... I am going to do that too... I shall name her after the hottest of the German gals..., "Heidi" - no, dang... you already took that In that case... I shall name her after the second hottest German girl... "Hilda". I can't wait to tell my wife.

mpesik

careful-but you can buy some happiness.

Dictys

Hi, I purchased my 1990 S4 for approx 4k this time last year. It was in poor condition but out here you do not have the same choice as elsewhere and I wanted one without a sunroof. In a year I've had to do the following jobs:

1) Timing Belt
2) New Porsche Water Pump
3) Rebuilt Steering rack
4) Rebuilt Steering Pump
5) Intake refresh including replacement idle valve, knock sensors etc
6) Renew Fuel Hoses with S/S braided and Roger's U bend.
7) Flex Plate Check and Release
8) Fuel Pressure Gauge
9) Complete Fluid Change
10) Clean C/E panel and replace all fuses / some relays.
11) New Filters
12) Fixed A/C Relay
13) New A/C hoses and pressure switch
14) New Vacuum Hoses
15) Restored leather and steering wheel
16) Respray Hood and Roof
17) Hood / Hatch Struts
18) Restore rear Luggage Cover
19) Fix rotten rear light fixing
20) Fixed various interior trim pieces
21) New Head Unit
22) Clean ground points
23) Renew Motor Mounts
24) Replace Battery
25) Install PKlamp
26) Fit New Tyres
27) Fix transmission shunt
28) Fix A/C Blower
29) Fix Rear Hatch Latch
30) Replace coils, rotors, wires and plugs
31) Replace Torque Tube!
32) Rebuilt MAF
33) Replace 02 sensor
34) Fuel dampners and regulator

So my advice would be take your time and get the car inspected, if you go in low expect to pay alot in the first year.

FredR

Is this the S4 that was stood in the Al Nabooda yard for years due to "non payment" of bills or whatever? that was a slate grey 1990 S4.

Regards

Fred