mark kibort

Ok folks, Petty is doing the 5 liter bottomend, on a euro top end. well, this is nothing new. Ive done a few of them, so whats the big deal? put all the euro stuff on top of 5 liter (85) bottomend and just notch the pistons for the 2 valve heads. compression is 10.5 , add a fue regulator and life is good, right?? WELL, for a AFM Ljet , maybe. what about for the euro 82 vs the US 79??? both CIS, one 200hp and one is 300hp.

So, here are the questions.
is the CIS systems on the euro vs the US the same? how can it be, if so, if there is 100hp difference? are the fuel pumps the same? mechanically, is the fuel distributor the same.
If not, can we mount all the CIS euro stuff on the euro engine and stick it in the CIS US chassis, and where are the breaks. meaning, where do the changes from one to the other occur? in otherwords, in the US Ljet vs 5 liter part euro, we used all the US stuff, right up until the euro throttle body. everything before it was US, and after it was euro (i.e. throttle body, runners, heads cams, etc, but not fuel injection, which was left untoucheched, US)

I think the only one that has done this modification is Stan Shaw, right?
Stan? what are the gochas???

Thanks

Rick and Mark

LUCKYJACKASS

Mark, I can't answer all of that, but I have an '83 Euro and the fuel pump is a different model than the US pump. I don't know if it is higher pressure, but I assume so. I haven't had mine long enough to get that technical about it. I am just beginning to dig into it as I have been using it as a DD until radiator and coolant tank problems. Good luck on this. Are you doing a write up on this build? If I ever have block problems, I would explore this same route as an option for rebuild.

danglerb

Euro S uses same on some years at least fuel distributor, different WUR. I think the 83 Euro S has some dohicky on the fuel distributor, but I forget the function, minor I think.

Close and/or safe is about the best I suspect will be possible using CIS. I would start with stock Euro S parts and if you can't get satisfaction maybe switch to an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

Dave928S

Mark

I'd be interested to hear of the differences.

My CIS Euro S is a very late manufactured 82 which seems to have all the features of an 83 ... so if you want any pics of parts or part numbers I can help.

A friend who lives close to me here has an 82 Euro S with a 5.0 litre bottom end which I've worked on .. so can also double check on that one. Interestingly that motor, has NOT had the pistons notched for the 4.7 heads. I wondered why it was interference when we did a TBWP ... but I soon saw why when I looked at the piston tops with an endoscope. It gets thrashed and it runs fine.

GlenL

Mark,

Open the PET and cross-reference a few P/Ns.

I _believe_ the fuel dist, Aux Air and pump are the same. It's the WUR that's different. Plus different spark advance curves in the distributor.

The power difference is mainly cams and intake flow plus the 0.2 litres.

toofast928

Well....I am a 5.0L Hybrid expert.
Mark you need a CIS guru. Glen's right ck the PET for fuel injector changes. For NA engine CIS can fuel it NP. Dizzy is curved to CIS.

Depending on the camshaft used will determine how deep to make the valve reliefs. 1979 camset would require valve relief depth of only .060". (using a 1986 block were the pistons rise above the deck). That's why Dave's friend was able to start his engine and will live with that minimal piston top damage.

mark kibort

If you are the expert, then what should we do. we have BOTH working systems. (euro 82 AND 79CIS) so, we can put on whatever we want, but obviuosly, would like to leave on the stuff on the US 79 that is the same. do those little injectors matter much? (or whatever you call them, as they are not injectors, but nosils of somesort). What is the "WUR"?

I could care less about dizzy curves, but if the CIS can fuel it (US), then we might just bolt all the US stuff back on. (everything but the entire euro top end intake and heads. air box the same too?

as far as the heads and cam shafts, its going to be stock euro, as Ive done this a few times, AND done this with a devek level B1 cam too.

Its not a big deal to run an engine without valve reliefs. the piston will chase the valves, but they will never touch. rememmber, I posted the clearance when the piston was at TDC, the valves could be pressed down into the chamber by .3" NOT the .5" lift that the B1 cam has. (or the .4" that a euro cam has). thats only .1 to .2 " clearance. no problem, as we all know from S4 cam-land, that when the crank moves 20 degrees, the distance the valves travel down is only near 2mm. so the piston will not hit the valves. It gives you safety margin and allows you to rotate the engine a little without a cam belt, but not much. put that crank at 45 degrees and assemble stuff and you are good. At TDC, or way off TDC, without notches, you might have a serous problem and have to lift the heads off to move stuff around, unless you set stuff up right as you assemble.

anyway, i put valve reliefs of .175" on all the 85s I built and they are all running today. (without it, you would have only about .175 " valve to piston clearance, best case at TDC

mark kibort

Thanks Glen. so, does a race car use Aux air, or is that for idle? yeah, again, what is the WUR? and as I mentioned , not too worried about the spark curves. race car will be used in narrow range, so we can fake it.

Thanks Dave, but we have both cars too, I just want to know from those that have done this or know, what the differences are . for example, if I didnt know or measure, one would think that the runners are all the same for US vs euro, but they are 1.5 vs 1.4". stuff like that, I would like to know.
by the way, all the euro, and US 4.7s are interferance (and if they are not, you might get lucky with a lifter not pumping all the way up, because the valves hit the tops of the pistons at .3" depression. (even US cams are greater lift than that.) and we are talking flat top piston, with no valve relief when using stock 85 pistons (4 valvers).
so you are seeing some contact, but not much with the lack of valve cuts. very interesting. a little valve float???

so, the euro and US uses a fuel regulator, like the US 4.7 Ljet models? two of them, or a different config?

Sounds like this might be pretty straight forward. Im not going to do the transfer of anything CIS, all IM going to help with is building the motor up to installing the heads. (notching pistons, replacing bearings, con nuts, and rings) I think we are even leaving the main bearings alone on this build up. sleeping dogs??? (plus its a lot easier to not split the case, though thats all ive ever done) any thoughts there? heck, if Todd built my engine with used mains, why cant I use used mains that are already assembled?? the only thing I would worry about would be thrust bearing wear. any checks I can do to make sure that re-using mains is ok??

GlenL

"Warm Up Regulator." It provides a richer mixture than the US version.

You might get rid of the aux air valve. It's for cold starts.

mark kibort

Oh, so if its the same as the US Ljet aux air valve, which allows for additional fuel too. it has its own injector. when we removed this on scots car, it SUCKs to start expecially when cold. my part euro 5 liter had all that stuff on it, just modified for the euro intake. as some of know, the US heads have intake port taps for the fuel and air to be injected into. the euro heads have these port taps on the exhaust valves for air injection for emmissions. you cant use the same system on those cars, as you would be putting fuel and air into the exhaust ports on start up.
if it is something like this, we might be able to adapt the US aux air valve to the euro intake , if the ports on the plenem are differnet. that goes back to my original question. if you just bolt on the US CIS stuff, will it all work just the same, or is the a difference in the fuel distributor or areas that would provide more fuel for the additional power of the CIS euro model (100hp more for euro vs US, stock)

smith 928

Just use a 85 euro s Maf and computers and the twin dizzys and be done.

mark kibort

far from it. then you need the newer intake sytem as well. (injectors, non cis U, wiring, etc etc etc and then etc)

all we need to do is transfer anthing from the euro that would help with keeping up with the new HP of the 5 liter and the additional HP that the euro brings from its set up. should be pretty easy, but just checking on the differernces to make it as easy as possible.

UncleMaz

Just when I think I am beginning to understand this hybrid business.....

jpitman2

AFAIK, the 83 CIS throttle body is bigger (80mm), which goes with the bigger runners etc. The WUR Bosch no for this model ends in -086. My fuel distributor has a cable plugged into the side that has something to do with assisting hot or half hot starts, and there is a solenoid in the WUR pipe that lowers control ONLY while cranking, and a temp sensor on the head to heater pipe is closed. For your purposes I suspect all that stuff is redundant.
Also FWIW,my car came with an S4 pump on it (based on the Bosch no), no in-tank pump, and it ran fine in 120F temps, and delivered spec volume, and 75psi system pressure.
jp 83 Euro S AT 53k

Landseer

I have a set of 5.0 pistons, ringed, flycut (apparently to a template Mark provided to the Rice schnittzle guy) and not decarbonized it appears ( a good thing). 7 look perfect, 1 looks to be cut questionably. They will not be used by me as I don't do engine build work. Looking for any donation around $100 for the set, to be paid after recpt and acceptance, which would be given back to Jadz928 for help with the #6 build.