View Poll Results: Would you be interested in custom front speakers for the 928, and what would you pay?
Nope, I am not intersted.
23
9.16%
I am only interested at less than $50/pair
22
8.76%
I am interested even at $100/pair
65
25.90%
I would still be interested even it it cost me $150/pair
64
25.50%
Price is not a factor, I want custom drivers so I dont have to mutilate my door!
77
30.68%
Voters: 251. You may not vote on this poll
Poll: Any interest in custom speaker drivers for the 928? **NOW IN PRODUCTION**
08-13-2011, 05:53 PM
#106
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Hi Hans
So, I'm still following this with great interest. :-)
How are the tests going? If the cross-overs are finished later, is it possible to purchase the speakers now and take delivery of the cross-overs later?
Cheers, JP
So, I'm still following this with great interest. :-)
How are the tests going? If the cross-overs are finished later, is it possible to purchase the speakers now and take delivery of the cross-overs later?
Cheers, JP
08-13-2011, 05:58 PM
#107
Rennlist Member
Or...Hans..can you TELL us what the good rolloff points would be? I still have some very nice MBQ comp Xovers that have a few set points I could use.
08-13-2011, 07:27 PM
#108
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Crossover design begins on Tuesday morning. It is official, I am contracting Phil Bamberg of Bamberg Audio and BESL to do the crossover design. I have a decent rig and software suite, but Phil has a full LEAP package and LMS measuring system. He also has worked in the loudspeaker industry for over a decade, including for some of the big players.
I am going over to his place on Tuesday mornign to assist with the measurements. I anticipate that we will have filters completed before the end of the week.
Discussions thus far are for a 4th order network. It will be highly specific for the 928, including some correction for the average seating position of the 928, and also any necessary notch filters for the drivers.
I dont currently have production drivers yet. I should have them in the next couple weeks... so nothing is available yet for sale. As soon as Xover design is done, I will be able to calculate costs, and then figure out what retail price will be. Shortly after that, I will be posting a pre-sale opportunity which will include a bit of a discount.
To protect my partner, and his marketing strategy, I will not be selling bare drivers. They will include the grills, hardware, and tweeters. Crossovers will be optional - and I will have an an active processor option available as well. I will highly encourage the use of the specific crossover, as it will get you the most out of the drivers.
There are some new projects I am working on, which I will announce the week after next. I have some collaborative shop time this upcoming weekend, and will be roughing out some new molds for some exciting new product extensions, but will reserve posting about them until I have pictures.
Keep an eye on this thread, and for some potential new ones.
Thanks,
Hans
I am going over to his place on Tuesday mornign to assist with the measurements. I anticipate that we will have filters completed before the end of the week.
Discussions thus far are for a 4th order network. It will be highly specific for the 928, including some correction for the average seating position of the 928, and also any necessary notch filters for the drivers.
I dont currently have production drivers yet. I should have them in the next couple weeks... so nothing is available yet for sale. As soon as Xover design is done, I will be able to calculate costs, and then figure out what retail price will be. Shortly after that, I will be posting a pre-sale opportunity which will include a bit of a discount.
To protect my partner, and his marketing strategy, I will not be selling bare drivers. They will include the grills, hardware, and tweeters. Crossovers will be optional - and I will have an an active processor option available as well. I will highly encourage the use of the specific crossover, as it will get you the most out of the drivers.
There are some new projects I am working on, which I will announce the week after next. I have some collaborative shop time this upcoming weekend, and will be roughing out some new molds for some exciting new product extensions, but will reserve posting about them until I have pictures.
Keep an eye on this thread, and for some potential new ones.
Thanks,
Hans
08-17-2011, 11:59 AM
#110
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I spent the better part of yesterday in the lab over at Bamberg. I found all sorts of interesting anomalies from the measurement process. I will try and attach some raw LMS plots soon, but the 928 door (as to be expected) really causes some bizarre artifacts. It is something inherent in the door itself. We tried removing the armrests, taping air leaks, stuffing the cavity... all had very modest effects to the overall pattern. After looking at the how the 928 door effects speakers, I can see why the factory drivers seem both anemic and "spotty".
I am modifying a couple things, and will retest again soon. From the data collected yesterday, it looks like we will likely need to employ three separate frequency traps for large peaks in the response curve. We will try several different filters, and it may be possible to reduce this down to two traps with wider Q's, but that is yet to be determined.
Due to some of the absolutely fascinating artifacts, it looks like a third-order network will be used instead of the previously suggested fourth-order. This will reduce some of the pin-point focus, but improve the overall listening experience for both passenger and driver - again, we will be testing both.
One unfortunate result of the testing, was that due to the change in crossover points and topology, my angled tweeter cups, which I was so happy with, will likely need to exchanged for a more simple flat mount. There is a null caused by a standing wave right around 2k as result from a reflection inside the cup. Frequency response is great from about 4k to well beyond 20k using the cup and the intended tweeters. Inserting a simple disc I made from cardboard to hold the tweeter in a straight configuration, eliminated the the deep valley centered around 2khz. Where I expected the frequency to roll off prior to 20k when measured off-axis, I found that even with a more conventional strait mount, and measuring off-axis (was 30 degrees for this test, will revisit when I have the new adapters made this week) the roll-off in high-frequency was sharp and significant, but started just past 20k (which is the threshold for most human hearing, and almost impossible to hear even with trained ears in a moving car)... so, while I wont be able to use the cups like I intended, they are easily modified for a near-flat response to 20k.
While it would be easy to use the part that I originally designed, it just is not ideal in this configuration, and because I am aiming to produce the best 928 speaker kit you can buy, I will either re-tool the injection molding at my expense, or include machined blanks to hold the tweeter in the existing part in the recently revealed ideal configuration. I wont pass the costs of my error down to the customer. The part is still very unique, and will be useable for future applications, I am sure.
The other decision I made though, is that I will likely not want to sell kits without crossovers. I will make this determination in the next week or so, but as the factory crossovers are pitiful at best, and the 928 door needs so much correction, I feel like I would be releasing an inferior product without including the necessary and proper filtering.
As I see it now, I will likely have two versions: passive and active filters. Both versions will include the drivers, grills, mounting accessories... etc. The passive version will come with a set of crossovers which will help correct all the nastiness the door imparts on the drivers. The active version will come with a set of parameters to dial into an active processor. It will have crossover points, slopes, and EQ centers and Q for all the traps to get a base-line for a good, flat, frequency response.
I do have several things planned in the way of offering affordable digital correction. They will be integrated into the SharkWoofer product, and also be made available separately for custom integration. More details to follow shortly.
Thanks
Hans
I am modifying a couple things, and will retest again soon. From the data collected yesterday, it looks like we will likely need to employ three separate frequency traps for large peaks in the response curve. We will try several different filters, and it may be possible to reduce this down to two traps with wider Q's, but that is yet to be determined.
Due to some of the absolutely fascinating artifacts, it looks like a third-order network will be used instead of the previously suggested fourth-order. This will reduce some of the pin-point focus, but improve the overall listening experience for both passenger and driver - again, we will be testing both.
One unfortunate result of the testing, was that due to the change in crossover points and topology, my angled tweeter cups, which I was so happy with, will likely need to exchanged for a more simple flat mount. There is a null caused by a standing wave right around 2k as result from a reflection inside the cup. Frequency response is great from about 4k to well beyond 20k using the cup and the intended tweeters. Inserting a simple disc I made from cardboard to hold the tweeter in a straight configuration, eliminated the the deep valley centered around 2khz. Where I expected the frequency to roll off prior to 20k when measured off-axis, I found that even with a more conventional strait mount, and measuring off-axis (was 30 degrees for this test, will revisit when I have the new adapters made this week) the roll-off in high-frequency was sharp and significant, but started just past 20k (which is the threshold for most human hearing, and almost impossible to hear even with trained ears in a moving car)... so, while I wont be able to use the cups like I intended, they are easily modified for a near-flat response to 20k.
While it would be easy to use the part that I originally designed, it just is not ideal in this configuration, and because I am aiming to produce the best 928 speaker kit you can buy, I will either re-tool the injection molding at my expense, or include machined blanks to hold the tweeter in the existing part in the recently revealed ideal configuration. I wont pass the costs of my error down to the customer. The part is still very unique, and will be useable for future applications, I am sure.
The other decision I made though, is that I will likely not want to sell kits without crossovers. I will make this determination in the next week or so, but as the factory crossovers are pitiful at best, and the 928 door needs so much correction, I feel like I would be releasing an inferior product without including the necessary and proper filtering.
As I see it now, I will likely have two versions: passive and active filters. Both versions will include the drivers, grills, mounting accessories... etc. The passive version will come with a set of crossovers which will help correct all the nastiness the door imparts on the drivers. The active version will come with a set of parameters to dial into an active processor. It will have crossover points, slopes, and EQ centers and Q for all the traps to get a base-line for a good, flat, frequency response.
I do have several things planned in the way of offering affordable digital correction. They will be integrated into the SharkWoofer product, and also be made available separately for custom integration. More details to follow shortly.
Thanks
Hans
08-17-2011, 08:36 PM
#111
I spent the better part of yesterday in the lab over at Bamberg. I found all sorts of interesting anomalies from the measurement process. I will try and attach some raw LMS plots soon, but the 928 door (as to be expected) really causes some bizarre artifacts. It is something inherent in the door itself. We tried removing the armrests, taping air leaks, stuffing the cavity... all had very modest effects to the overall pattern. After looking at the how the 928 door effects speakers, I can see why the factory drivers seem both anemic and "spotty".
I am modifying a couple things, and will retest again soon. From the data collected yesterday, it looks like we will likely need to employ three separate frequency traps for large peaks in the response curve. We will try several different filters, and it may be possible to reduce this down to two traps with wider Q's, but that is yet to be determined.
Due to some of the absolutely fascinating artifacts, it looks like a third-order network will be used instead of the previously suggested fourth-order. This will reduce some of the pin-point focus, but improve the overall listening experience for both passenger and driver - again, we will be testing both.
One unfortunate result of the testing, was that due to the change in crossover points and topology, my angled tweeter cups, which I was so happy with, will likely need to exchanged for a more simple flat mount. There is a null caused by a standing wave right around 2k as result from a reflection inside the cup. Frequency response is great from about 4k to well beyond 20k using the cup and the intended tweeters. Inserting a simple disc I made from cardboard to hold the tweeter in a straight configuration, eliminated the the deep valley centered around 2khz. Where I expected the frequency to roll off prior to 20k when measured off-axis, I found that even with a more conventional strait mount, and measuring off-axis (was 30 degrees for this test, will revisit when I have the new adapters made this week) the roll-off in high-frequency was sharp and significant, but started just past 20k (which is the threshold for most human hearing, and almost impossible to hear even with trained ears in a moving car)... so, while I wont be able to use the cups like I intended, they are easily modified for a near-flat response to 20k.
While it would be easy to use the part that I originally designed, it just is not ideal in this configuration, and because I am aiming to produce the best 928 speaker kit you can buy, I will either re-tool the injection molding at my expense, or include machined blanks to hold the tweeter in the existing part in the recently revealed ideal configuration. I wont pass the costs of my error down to the customer. The part is still very unique, and will be useable for future applications, I am sure.
The other decision I made though, is that I will likely not want to sell kits without crossovers. I will make this determination in the next week or so, but as the factory crossovers are pitiful at best, and the 928 door needs so much correction, I feel like I would be releasing an inferior product without including the necessary and proper filtering.
As I see it now, I will likely have two versions: passive and active filters. Both versions will include the drivers, grills, mounting accessories... etc. The passive version will come with a set of crossovers which will help correct all the nastiness the door imparts on the drivers. The active version will come with a set of parameters to dial into an active processor. It will have crossover points, slopes, and EQ centers and Q for all the traps to get a base-line for a good, flat, frequency response.
I do have several things planned in the way of offering affordable digital correction. They will be integrated into the SharkWoofer product, and also be made available separately for custom integration. More details to follow shortly.
Thanks
Hans
I am modifying a couple things, and will retest again soon. From the data collected yesterday, it looks like we will likely need to employ three separate frequency traps for large peaks in the response curve. We will try several different filters, and it may be possible to reduce this down to two traps with wider Q's, but that is yet to be determined.
Due to some of the absolutely fascinating artifacts, it looks like a third-order network will be used instead of the previously suggested fourth-order. This will reduce some of the pin-point focus, but improve the overall listening experience for both passenger and driver - again, we will be testing both.
One unfortunate result of the testing, was that due to the change in crossover points and topology, my angled tweeter cups, which I was so happy with, will likely need to exchanged for a more simple flat mount. There is a null caused by a standing wave right around 2k as result from a reflection inside the cup. Frequency response is great from about 4k to well beyond 20k using the cup and the intended tweeters. Inserting a simple disc I made from cardboard to hold the tweeter in a straight configuration, eliminated the the deep valley centered around 2khz. Where I expected the frequency to roll off prior to 20k when measured off-axis, I found that even with a more conventional strait mount, and measuring off-axis (was 30 degrees for this test, will revisit when I have the new adapters made this week) the roll-off in high-frequency was sharp and significant, but started just past 20k (which is the threshold for most human hearing, and almost impossible to hear even with trained ears in a moving car)... so, while I wont be able to use the cups like I intended, they are easily modified for a near-flat response to 20k.
While it would be easy to use the part that I originally designed, it just is not ideal in this configuration, and because I am aiming to produce the best 928 speaker kit you can buy, I will either re-tool the injection molding at my expense, or include machined blanks to hold the tweeter in the existing part in the recently revealed ideal configuration. I wont pass the costs of my error down to the customer. The part is still very unique, and will be useable for future applications, I am sure.
The other decision I made though, is that I will likely not want to sell kits without crossovers. I will make this determination in the next week or so, but as the factory crossovers are pitiful at best, and the 928 door needs so much correction, I feel like I would be releasing an inferior product without including the necessary and proper filtering.
As I see it now, I will likely have two versions: passive and active filters. Both versions will include the drivers, grills, mounting accessories... etc. The passive version will come with a set of crossovers which will help correct all the nastiness the door imparts on the drivers. The active version will come with a set of parameters to dial into an active processor. It will have crossover points, slopes, and EQ centers and Q for all the traps to get a base-line for a good, flat, frequency response.
I do have several things planned in the way of offering affordable digital correction. They will be integrated into the SharkWoofer product, and also be made available separately for custom integration. More details to follow shortly.
Thanks
Hans
08-18-2011, 04:17 AM
#112
Rennlist Member
Hans,
is this problem from the curved area behind the speakers, that gives them space to fit?
I filled mine with fibrefill and the metal panel is deadened both sides with Second skin Audio products, for my Rainbow M100 mids. [I have two there!].
The Brax 2.1 mid that I am replacing them with is in its own little enclosure, though I am worried how I am going to securely mount them, as they use a threaded ring to clamp the speaker to the panel.
Most likely a 6mm alloy plate trimmed to suit, or a plate mounted to the door on rubber and the the door card over it.
Scott Buwalda is coming to Melb in Jan 2012, and I have booked into his day seminar,as basically I have little knowledge of correcting sound etc.
Looking forward to having a set of your creations stashed away for another day, the work you are doing is pretty much unbelievable!! many thanks
is this problem from the curved area behind the speakers, that gives them space to fit?
I filled mine with fibrefill and the metal panel is deadened both sides with Second skin Audio products, for my Rainbow M100 mids. [I have two there!].
The Brax 2.1 mid that I am replacing them with is in its own little enclosure, though I am worried how I am going to securely mount them, as they use a threaded ring to clamp the speaker to the panel.
Most likely a 6mm alloy plate trimmed to suit, or a plate mounted to the door on rubber and the the door card over it.
Scott Buwalda is coming to Melb in Jan 2012, and I have booked into his day seminar,as basically I have little knowledge of correcting sound etc.
Looking forward to having a set of your creations stashed away for another day, the work you are doing is pretty much unbelievable!! many thanks
Last edited by blazing928; 08-18-2011 at 05:22 AM.
08-18-2011, 08:41 PM
#113
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Nigel,
I am not sure, what exactly is causing the issues. I may look into it further if time and budget permit. For now, I do have a "good" set of measurements which can be used for a the crossover and correction filters.
I can say that the fiber fill had very limited effect. It did provide some dampening, but raised the roll-off point of the 4" driver... so in a way adversely effected the bass response.
Thanks
Hans
I am not sure, what exactly is causing the issues. I may look into it further if time and budget permit. For now, I do have a "good" set of measurements which can be used for a the crossover and correction filters.
I can say that the fiber fill had very limited effect. It did provide some dampening, but raised the roll-off point of the 4" driver... so in a way adversely effected the bass response.
Thanks
Hans
08-24-2011, 02:10 PM
#114
Have you investigated using DLS speakers? I have a 3 way setup, the 2.5" mid is domed so they have their own back box so to speak and no need to worry about the door affecting the sound. I used 5 or 6mm alu plate in place of the original.
There was a little of the alu visible at the front so I used a bit of black sticky carpet the same you use for speaker enclosures
And some speaker grills from Monacor to end up with a nice factory look
I used the 6.5" driver from the set in the stock position backed up with alu rings offsent and mounted to the inner skin.
Ring
Fixed in place with some more carpet ready to fix speaker (to pre-threaded holes)
The hole in the inner skin had been made larger by a PO but I also installed the same system in a friends GTS without cutting.
Along with the sub seen here, custom FG enclosure and 12" woofer it sounds superb. Amp cover removed so you can see just the banana plugs to un-plug and the sub lifts out (with some wiggling and release from the velcro strip underneath). Sub and Amp by Genesis, a great British make.
No thread take over wished here, I just wanted to show my work and what is possible, it wasn't cheap, I bought the DLS from US far cheaper than UK price, amp was un-used ex-display at half price, sub also old stock 3rd of price. I saved labor doing it all myself.
I tried cheaper JBL speakers in the same configuration but they didn't sound as nice and worse at higher levels. The DLS system goes loud, you feel your shirt moving and the bass in your chest and it's still very clear with no harsh frequencies or distortion. Some of that I put down to the mounting, and part down to the quality of the drivers.
There was a little of the alu visible at the front so I used a bit of black sticky carpet the same you use for speaker enclosures
And some speaker grills from Monacor to end up with a nice factory look
I used the 6.5" driver from the set in the stock position backed up with alu rings offsent and mounted to the inner skin.
Ring
Fixed in place with some more carpet ready to fix speaker (to pre-threaded holes)
The hole in the inner skin had been made larger by a PO but I also installed the same system in a friends GTS without cutting.
Along with the sub seen here, custom FG enclosure and 12" woofer it sounds superb. Amp cover removed so you can see just the banana plugs to un-plug and the sub lifts out (with some wiggling and release from the velcro strip underneath). Sub and Amp by Genesis, a great British make.
No thread take over wished here, I just wanted to show my work and what is possible, it wasn't cheap, I bought the DLS from US far cheaper than UK price, amp was un-used ex-display at half price, sub also old stock 3rd of price. I saved labor doing it all myself.
I tried cheaper JBL speakers in the same configuration but they didn't sound as nice and worse at higher levels. The DLS system goes loud, you feel your shirt moving and the bass in your chest and it's still very clear with no harsh frequencies or distortion. Some of that I put down to the mounting, and part down to the quality of the drivers.
08-24-2011, 02:35 PM
#115
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Nice work my friend.
I did look at all the existing drivers from all manufacturers, and I could not find anything that would fit without permanently modifying the car, with the exception of a Ciare driver (which was only available in 8ohm, unless I committed to a 500driver experiment at a cost of over $25,000 and an 8-month production cycle) and the Focal slim drivers, which have average performance and cost over twice as much as the drivers I ended up building.
That said, DLS is a good brand, and they do have some very nice stuff. They just didnt have a 4" driver that would fit in the door.
The rest of your install looks very nice. Its a shame Genesis went under. Not many really great amp builders out there any more. I still have a vintage collection... probably over 50 different 1985-2000 build date amps. They just dont build them like they used to. Its a good thing digital has improved, the new classD/G are very useable, and in most installs, its tough to distinguish them from a good A/B. I am recommending digital amps with my subwoofer install, and have very pleased with the performance.
Thanks for sharing,
Hans
I did look at all the existing drivers from all manufacturers, and I could not find anything that would fit without permanently modifying the car, with the exception of a Ciare driver (which was only available in 8ohm, unless I committed to a 500driver experiment at a cost of over $25,000 and an 8-month production cycle) and the Focal slim drivers, which have average performance and cost over twice as much as the drivers I ended up building.
That said, DLS is a good brand, and they do have some very nice stuff. They just didnt have a 4" driver that would fit in the door.
The rest of your install looks very nice. Its a shame Genesis went under. Not many really great amp builders out there any more. I still have a vintage collection... probably over 50 different 1985-2000 build date amps. They just dont build them like they used to. Its a good thing digital has improved, the new classD/G are very useable, and in most installs, its tough to distinguish them from a good A/B. I am recommending digital amps with my subwoofer install, and have very pleased with the performance.
Thanks for sharing,
Hans
08-24-2011, 03:39 PM
#116
Rennlist Member
Funny to keep watching this thread as when you started I was interested but sure I would have redone my S4 speakers before you had yours available. Time has passed, your solution is coming closer and closer and I have still done nothing. Bad news: My car still sounds like crap and has this whole time. Good news: I'm ready and waiting for your solution!
08-24-2011, 03:53 PM
#117
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Hans, what are you going to recommend for locating the crossovers? Do you like the factory original location on the inside of the door panel or would you like to put them elsewhere?
08-24-2011, 04:18 PM
#118
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The wait is almost over. Speakers are shipping this week.
I am going to fast-track a couple sets via DHL, but the bulk is coming by sea frieght. If I DHL'ed the entire lot, it would add $5 in cost per/driver... But they should be here via the "slow boat" in about 35days. That is about how long it takes to get here and clear customs.
I hope to get the crossover design completed yet this week. It is really tough to suggest where to install them at this point, as I dont have a concept of physical size yet. For those who are purchasing the SharkWoofer, I will have a bracket available which will hold the crossovers in that assembly, so you dont have to worry about mounting them at all.
They certainly will fit in the doors, so that is not a problem, but there are some locations under the dash which may eliminate the need to remove the door for installation.
SharkWoofer R2 (under development, but should be released with the speakers) will support the JBL MS-8 and MS-A series amplifiers, eliminating the need for crossovers in certain installs. I will also have a custom processor, which will be available for the more discerning customer, and will come pre-configured with all the settings and filters for a good base-line, but allow for infinite tweaking to get it just right for your listening position.
There will be lots of options for you guys to customize your install.
I will try and launch a website in the near future, and try and get all the information organized.
Thanks
Hans
I am going to fast-track a couple sets via DHL, but the bulk is coming by sea frieght. If I DHL'ed the entire lot, it would add $5 in cost per/driver... But they should be here via the "slow boat" in about 35days. That is about how long it takes to get here and clear customs.
I hope to get the crossover design completed yet this week. It is really tough to suggest where to install them at this point, as I dont have a concept of physical size yet. For those who are purchasing the SharkWoofer, I will have a bracket available which will hold the crossovers in that assembly, so you dont have to worry about mounting them at all.
They certainly will fit in the doors, so that is not a problem, but there are some locations under the dash which may eliminate the need to remove the door for installation.
SharkWoofer R2 (under development, but should be released with the speakers) will support the JBL MS-8 and MS-A series amplifiers, eliminating the need for crossovers in certain installs. I will also have a custom processor, which will be available for the more discerning customer, and will come pre-configured with all the settings and filters for a good base-line, but allow for infinite tweaking to get it just right for your listening position.
There will be lots of options for you guys to customize your install.
I will try and launch a website in the near future, and try and get all the information organized.
Thanks
Hans
08-24-2011, 04:24 PM
#119
Nordschleife Master
I am enjoying the 928 V8 sound until the OB option is ready 
.
.
08-24-2011, 04:26 PM
#120
Administrator - "Tyson"
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