1984 928S VS 1968 Chevelle big block
11-14-2010, 12:21 AM
#76
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Make it a flying mile drag race. You didn't say f your car was an automatic or a manual. I'll assume it is an automatic.
1: Install a shift delay switch. This will wind your gears out and will not shift until you hit Aprox 5800 RPM fpr each gear. I hope your car is in good shape and the timing belt is tensioned properly.
2: Set the firmnes on the tranny to it's hardes posstion.
3: Fill it up with 103 octane racing gas.
4: He's going to be real worried about getting busted by the cops, as he is used to going two blocks and shutting it down. So he will be prone to making a mistake.
5: He'll sit and smoke the tires being over anxious due to the length of the race, so you will get out in front of him.
6: Once he is ahead, and he could be, he'll most likely push it too hard and over rev it, once he sees you catching him in the rearview mirror, and he'll likely bend a push rod.
1: Install a shift delay switch. This will wind your gears out and will not shift until you hit Aprox 5800 RPM fpr each gear. I hope your car is in good shape and the timing belt is tensioned properly.
2: Set the firmnes on the tranny to it's hardes posstion.
3: Fill it up with 103 octane racing gas.
4: He's going to be real worried about getting busted by the cops, as he is used to going two blocks and shutting it down. So he will be prone to making a mistake.
5: He'll sit and smoke the tires being over anxious due to the length of the race, so you will get out in front of him.
6: Once he is ahead, and he could be, he'll most likely push it too hard and over rev it, once he sees you catching him in the rearview mirror, and he'll likely bend a push rod.
11-14-2010, 10:55 AM
#77
By kicking *** and taking names.
I'm the only guy to ever work on this car for over 24 years and went through many trial and error experiments and tweekings. I've learned a lot about the US model cars and have worked on many Euros.
Unlike a stock US 928, there is very little to tweek since most of the original 928 control platform has been rendered redundent and useless. In fact, other than timing and idle, the air / fuel mixture, fuel pressure and dump rate are about it.
Laugh and call me old school if you like, but it's just an engine and though it might not be designed like so many others, the 16V was designed way back in the mid 70s and what worked then, still works today.
Compared to the 32V interference engines the US 16Vs are just basic, no rocket science engines.
Now as far as high octane fuel is concerned.
Simply put, you NEVER want a supecharged engine to go lean, period.
So, you adjust pressure, dump rate and air / fuel mix until you find the perfect balance.
The antique Barn Door Air Flow Meter on these cars provide very little range of adjustment, so really timing, pressure and dump provide more tweeking range than the AFM.
Anyway, Once dialed in, and experimenting with different amounts of 103 mixed with 93 Shell, I found that 1 gallon of 103 per 10 gallons of 93 makes THIS PARTICULAR CAR idle smoother, accelerate better and actually improves gas mileage.
There was no real improvement in mixing over the 10 to 1 mix.
When it was stock, I found that a mix of 5 to 1 worked very well.
Now, I understand the the S4 and higher control platforms compensate for the lower octane fuel and that's a wonderful thing.
They are actually continuously deciding whether or not to make adjustments.
Others who have tried just 1 gallon in their tank have told me that their cars seemed to run a bit better and had more pick up. At least they tried it.
Once there was a group of wizards debating how many teeth a horse had.
One of the older wizards, getting tired of the debate, said to the rest, just open the horse's mouth and count them.
The other wizards called him an old fool and proceded to stone the older wizard to death and then continued to debate the question for the rest of their lives, never knowing the answer.
Experimentation is one of things that make this country great.
Nothing Ventured, Nothing Gained.
I'm the only guy to ever work on this car for over 24 years and went through many trial and error experiments and tweekings. I've learned a lot about the US model cars and have worked on many Euros.
Unlike a stock US 928, there is very little to tweek since most of the original 928 control platform has been rendered redundent and useless. In fact, other than timing and idle, the air / fuel mixture, fuel pressure and dump rate are about it.
Laugh and call me old school if you like, but it's just an engine and though it might not be designed like so many others, the 16V was designed way back in the mid 70s and what worked then, still works today.
Compared to the 32V interference engines the US 16Vs are just basic, no rocket science engines.
Now as far as high octane fuel is concerned.
Simply put, you NEVER want a supecharged engine to go lean, period.
So, you adjust pressure, dump rate and air / fuel mix until you find the perfect balance.
The antique Barn Door Air Flow Meter on these cars provide very little range of adjustment, so really timing, pressure and dump provide more tweeking range than the AFM.
Anyway, Once dialed in, and experimenting with different amounts of 103 mixed with 93 Shell, I found that 1 gallon of 103 per 10 gallons of 93 makes THIS PARTICULAR CAR idle smoother, accelerate better and actually improves gas mileage.
There was no real improvement in mixing over the 10 to 1 mix.
When it was stock, I found that a mix of 5 to 1 worked very well.
Now, I understand the the S4 and higher control platforms compensate for the lower octane fuel and that's a wonderful thing.
They are actually continuously deciding whether or not to make adjustments.
Others who have tried just 1 gallon in their tank have told me that their cars seemed to run a bit better and had more pick up. At least they tried it.
Once there was a group of wizards debating how many teeth a horse had.
One of the older wizards, getting tired of the debate, said to the rest, just open the horse's mouth and count them.
The other wizards called him an old fool and proceded to stone the older wizard to death and then continued to debate the question for the rest of their lives, never knowing the answer.
Experimentation is one of things that make this country great.
Nothing Ventured, Nothing Gained.
11-14-2010, 10:57 AM
#78
Drifting
The 60's Chevelles ('shovels', as called around here) had surprisingly good weight distribution. They were quick street cars back in the 70's. I spent about 10 years in a Chevy service dept back in the 70's and the fit and finish of the Chevelles was a bit better than other Chevies.
My bother-in-law ran a 289 Falcon with a 3:90 posi (9inch), scatter shield, internal balance, 351 heads (ported and cc'ed), headers and open exhaust. He could drive. Ran 13.5 at 103 - this is a very fast street car and had no problem with stock 455 Firebirds and such. Twelve second range on the street with old iron is hard to do.
My bother-in-law ran a 289 Falcon with a 3:90 posi (9inch), scatter shield, internal balance, 351 heads (ported and cc'ed), headers and open exhaust. He could drive. Ran 13.5 at 103 - this is a very fast street car and had no problem with stock 455 Firebirds and such. Twelve second range on the street with old iron is hard to do.
To the OP what does a custom job vs. a stock job say --- NOTHING, it's a pointless match-up.
Larry is the only one making sense here. I am a big fan of 60's muscle cars and I am also realistic about them. They were not that fast, I grew up around them, I have read all about them, and my first car was a mustang GT I ordered from the factory.
Here is 1 page that will tell you some facts - http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...istory-1.shtml
I have seen the numbers on all the others nothing really stands out except for a very rare 68-70 corvette option, only couple hundred built. The L88 http://www.thel88corvette.com/
Here is the nicest muscle car I have ever seen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmbqV...layer_embedded
And to everyone in general, don't make blanket statements about the 928, there are way too many versions with too many different options to make a blanket statement. You can say your 928 is a dog or just smokes tires or sucks ............... because my 928 with LSD and me driving hooks up and moves like crazy and beats newer mustangs with 5.3 0-60 times.
And the American muscle you don't want to go against is the new stuff like the 2012 MUSTANG BOSS LAGUNA SECA.
Last edited by tv; 11-14-2010 at 11:16 AM.
11-14-2010, 12:09 PM
#81
Nordschleife Master
Higher octane fuel will always create better acceleration and better gas milage in any car including a VW Beetle with 250K on it. It will also make a car run smoother and clean the carbon out like nothing else. With higher octane fuel, you do not have to push the pedal down as far as you would with lower octane fuel in any given situation.
By kicking *** and taking names.
I'm the only guy to ever work on this car for over 24 years and went through many trial and error experiments and tweekings. I've learned a lot about the US model cars and have worked on many Euros.
Unlike a stock US 928, there is very little to tweek since most of the original 928 control platform has been rendered redundent and useless. In fact, other than timing and idle, the air / fuel mixture, fuel pressure and dump rate are about it.
Laugh and call me old school if you like, but it's just an engine and though it might not be designed like so many others, the 16V was designed way back in the mid 70s and what worked then, still works today.
Compared to the 32V interference engines the US 16Vs are just basic, no rocket science engines.
[...]
Anyway, Once dialed in, and experimenting with different amounts of 103 mixed with 93 Shell, I found that 1 gallon of 103 per 10 gallons of 93 makes THIS PARTICULAR CAR idle smoother, accelerate better and actually improves gas mileage.
There was no real improvement in mixing over the 10 to 1 mix.
When it was stock, I found that a mix of 5 to 1 worked very well.
Now, I understand the the S4 and higher control platforms compensate for the lower octane fuel and that's a wonderful thing.
They are actually continuously deciding whether or not to make adjustments.
Others who have tried just 1 gallon in their tank have told me that their cars seemed to run a bit better and had more pick up. At least they tried it.
I'm the only guy to ever work on this car for over 24 years and went through many trial and error experiments and tweekings. I've learned a lot about the US model cars and have worked on many Euros.
Unlike a stock US 928, there is very little to tweek since most of the original 928 control platform has been rendered redundent and useless. In fact, other than timing and idle, the air / fuel mixture, fuel pressure and dump rate are about it.
Laugh and call me old school if you like, but it's just an engine and though it might not be designed like so many others, the 16V was designed way back in the mid 70s and what worked then, still works today.
Compared to the 32V interference engines the US 16Vs are just basic, no rocket science engines.
[...]
Anyway, Once dialed in, and experimenting with different amounts of 103 mixed with 93 Shell, I found that 1 gallon of 103 per 10 gallons of 93 makes THIS PARTICULAR CAR idle smoother, accelerate better and actually improves gas mileage.
There was no real improvement in mixing over the 10 to 1 mix.
When it was stock, I found that a mix of 5 to 1 worked very well.
Now, I understand the the S4 and higher control platforms compensate for the lower octane fuel and that's a wonderful thing.
They are actually continuously deciding whether or not to make adjustments.
Others who have tried just 1 gallon in their tank have told me that their cars seemed to run a bit better and had more pick up. At least they tried it.
With all due respect, though, that's not what Greg and I were objecting to. Initially, you said that an early-model stock 928 would run noticeably faster with 100% 103. Furthermore, you also said that higher octane fuel is always better in all circumstances. Those are the two statements that I was objecting to.
(The reason why I am interested in this topic is that I am severely knock limited and could probably put down a lot more power on 103.)
11-14-2010, 12:28 PM
#82
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He also said gasoline weighed ten pounds per gallon.
91% 93 and 9% 103 may easily work better than 100% 93 in a normally aspirated car, if the car is either knocking or if the timing is advanced too much for best power. Although I would expect there to be a greater benefit with later models with higher compression and knock retard logic, if you tell me that's what works with your early-model car, I believe you.
With all due respect, though, that's not what Greg and I were objecting to. Initially, you said that an early-model stock 928 would run noticeably faster with 100% 103. Furthermore, you also said that higher octane fuel is always better in all circumstances. Those are the two statements that I was objecting to.
(The reason why I am interested in this topic is that I am severely knock limited and could probably put down a lot more power on 103.)
With all due respect, though, that's not what Greg and I were objecting to. Initially, you said that an early-model stock 928 would run noticeably faster with 100% 103. Furthermore, you also said that higher octane fuel is always better in all circumstances. Those are the two statements that I was objecting to.
(The reason why I am interested in this topic is that I am severely knock limited and could probably put down a lot more power on 103.)
11-14-2010, 12:29 PM
#83
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
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Is the 103 fuel enriched with ethanol as the pump gas is? Buying race gas or 103 avgas generally means no ethanol. Avgas can't have it because the water it soaks up turns to ice in carburetors at altitude.
I don't doubt that my car would run better on 103 avgas for a while. At least until the cat melted and the oxy sensor crapper out from contaminents in the fuel.
I don't doubt that my car would run better on 103 avgas for a while. At least until the cat melted and the oxy sensor crapper out from contaminents in the fuel.
11-14-2010, 12:46 PM
#84
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Is the 103 fuel enriched with ethanol as the pump gas is? Buying race gas or 103 avgas generally means no ethanol. Avgas can't have it because the water it soaks up turns to ice in carburetors at altitude.
I don't doubt that my car would run better on 103 avgas for a while. At least until the cat melted and the oxy sensor crapper out from contaminents in the fuel.
I don't doubt that my car would run better on 103 avgas for a while. At least until the cat melted and the oxy sensor crapper out from contaminents in the fuel.
11-14-2010, 02:34 PM
#85
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Given that you have a none stock supercharged engine with none stock ignition timing your fuel requirements ARE probably different. And I would agree that ..."Experimentation is one of things that make this country great." But with one addition...SCIENTIFIC which at a minimum would be a "blind tasting" use of a control group, in other words someone else doing the adding of the premium but not in every car..... or several runs in the same car where the driver does not know what is in the tank but THINKS it has PREMIUM each run. The human mind is a facinating organ but it is NEVER objective.
11-14-2010, 06:07 PM
#86
Race Director
There are plenty of guys on this list that I consider better drivers than I am!
11-14-2010, 06:44 PM
#88
Man, try to help a guy hold his own against a Chevelle and it's like the end of the world.
The only generalizations that I made were what I was taught during Shell Oil training.
I stated that it was some years back.
I recognize that great improvements have been made since the 70s.
I also stated this is what works for me, on my car, that I have owned and worked on since I got it a very long time ago.
Others have tried the mix in later model 928s and have not told me that they melted their cats or blown there oxygen sensors or experienced any problems at all.
And let's not forget that Porsche designed this car in Germany, where you could still get High test fuel and they HAD to modify it to pass the pollution tests and other government regulation and restrictions here.
Kind of glad they dropped the compression ratio myself as there is, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, a whole lot less engine and valve train failures on the US 4.7 since they are non interference engines.
I believe if they could have had it their way, there would have been no difference at all, mechanically or electronically, between a US and Euro car at all. Not a broad statement just my belief.
I do apologize for not running to the gas station to get exactly one gallon of gas to weigh it. But the point was to save weight and give the guy a chance.
UNLEADED 100 - 103 octane pump racing gas is available here at gas stations in the sticks and near drag strips and raceways. It's not aviation fuel. It costs about $6.00 a gallon. Smells really nice too.
There are many Sunoco 260 GT100 Locations that you can buy 100 octane if you feel safer with that.
If you want to wild you get 104 octane research fuel delivered to your door go here: http://www.vpracingfuels.com/page535437.html
But I don't think many of you will even throw a gallon in as a "just to see" test.
Believe me, I have all the respect in the world for Jim Bailey and everyone else on Renlist for that matter.
You'll just have to take my word on the fact that I don't talk smack.
As far as a scientific test as Jim suggests, I think that would be a great idea. Not sure how one would go about doing it though. Any ideas on that?
Not to get off topic too much, but you all really seem to know a lot about the later cars.
The only thing that I would like to try on my car would be to convert it to a later model computer control platform, as I believe this would allow me to use the Shark Tuner.
Would that be true?
Has anybody done this on a 16V?
I think I'll start a new thread on that.
The only generalizations that I made were what I was taught during Shell Oil training.
I stated that it was some years back.
I recognize that great improvements have been made since the 70s.
I also stated this is what works for me, on my car, that I have owned and worked on since I got it a very long time ago.
Others have tried the mix in later model 928s and have not told me that they melted their cats or blown there oxygen sensors or experienced any problems at all.
And let's not forget that Porsche designed this car in Germany, where you could still get High test fuel and they HAD to modify it to pass the pollution tests and other government regulation and restrictions here.
Kind of glad they dropped the compression ratio myself as there is, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, a whole lot less engine and valve train failures on the US 4.7 since they are non interference engines.
I believe if they could have had it their way, there would have been no difference at all, mechanically or electronically, between a US and Euro car at all. Not a broad statement just my belief.
I do apologize for not running to the gas station to get exactly one gallon of gas to weigh it. But the point was to save weight and give the guy a chance.
UNLEADED 100 - 103 octane pump racing gas is available here at gas stations in the sticks and near drag strips and raceways. It's not aviation fuel. It costs about $6.00 a gallon. Smells really nice too.
There are many Sunoco 260 GT100 Locations that you can buy 100 octane if you feel safer with that.
If you want to wild you get 104 octane research fuel delivered to your door go here: http://www.vpracingfuels.com/page535437.html
But I don't think many of you will even throw a gallon in as a "just to see" test.
Believe me, I have all the respect in the world for Jim Bailey and everyone else on Renlist for that matter.
You'll just have to take my word on the fact that I don't talk smack.
As far as a scientific test as Jim suggests, I think that would be a great idea. Not sure how one would go about doing it though. Any ideas on that?
Not to get off topic too much, but you all really seem to know a lot about the later cars.
The only thing that I would like to try on my car would be to convert it to a later model computer control platform, as I believe this would allow me to use the Shark Tuner.
Would that be true?
Has anybody done this on a 16V?
I think I'll start a new thread on that.
11-14-2010, 06:59 PM
#89
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We have 103 right down the street here, I have tried it in the Chevelle, the supercharged Corvette and the 928, the only one it made any difference (that I could tell) in was the blown Corvette and only because I could put more timing in it.
By all means if it works for you, use it.
As far as how to really tell, there is a thread here I am sure on the G-Tech and others.
I do not have one either, if that means any thing.
By all means if it works for you, use it.
As far as how to really tell, there is a thread here I am sure on the G-Tech and others.
I do not have one either, if that means any thing.
Man, try to help a guy hold his own against a Chevelle and it's like the end of the world.
The only generalizations that I made were what I was taught during Shell Oil training.
I stated that it was some years back.
I recognize that great improvements have been made since the 70s.
I also stated this is what works for me, on my car, that I have owned and worked on since I got it a very long time ago.
Others have tried the mix in later model 928s and have not told me that they melted their cats or blown there oxygen sensors or experienced any problems at all.
And let's not forget that Porsche designed this car in Germany, where you could still get High test fuel and they HAD to modify it to pass the pollution tests and other government regulation and restrictions here.
Kind of glad they dropped the compression ratio myself as there is, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, a whole lot less engine and valve train failures on the US 4.7 since they are non interference engines.
I believe if they could have had it their way, there would have been no difference at all, mechanically or electronically, between a US and Euro car at all. Not a broad statement just my belief.
I do apologize for not running to the gas station to get exactly one gallon of gas to weigh it. But the point was to save weight and give the guy a chance.
UNLEADED 100 - 103 octane pump racing gas is available here at gas stations in the sticks and near drag strips and raceways. It's not aviation fuel. It costs about $6.00 a gallon. Smells really nice too.
There are many Sunoco 260 GT100 Locations that you can buy 100 octane if you feel safer with that.
If you want to wild you get 104 octane research fuel delivered to your door go here: http://www.vpracingfuels.com/page535437.html
But I don't think many of you will even throw a gallon in as a "just to see" test.
Believe me, I have all the respect in the world for Jim Bailey and everyone else on Renlist for that matter.
You'll just have to take my word on the fact that I don't talk smack.
As far as a scientific test as Jim suggests, I think that would be a great idea. Not sure how one would go about doing it though. Any ideas on that?
Not to get off topic too much, but you all really seem to know a lot about the later cars.
The only thing that I would like to try on my car would be to convert it to a later model computer control platform, as I believe this would allow me to use the Shark Tuner.
Would that be true?
Has anybody done this on a 16V?
I think I'll start a new thread on that.
The only generalizations that I made were what I was taught during Shell Oil training.
I stated that it was some years back.
I recognize that great improvements have been made since the 70s.
I also stated this is what works for me, on my car, that I have owned and worked on since I got it a very long time ago.
Others have tried the mix in later model 928s and have not told me that they melted their cats or blown there oxygen sensors or experienced any problems at all.
And let's not forget that Porsche designed this car in Germany, where you could still get High test fuel and they HAD to modify it to pass the pollution tests and other government regulation and restrictions here.
Kind of glad they dropped the compression ratio myself as there is, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, a whole lot less engine and valve train failures on the US 4.7 since they are non interference engines.
I believe if they could have had it their way, there would have been no difference at all, mechanically or electronically, between a US and Euro car at all. Not a broad statement just my belief.
I do apologize for not running to the gas station to get exactly one gallon of gas to weigh it. But the point was to save weight and give the guy a chance.
UNLEADED 100 - 103 octane pump racing gas is available here at gas stations in the sticks and near drag strips and raceways. It's not aviation fuel. It costs about $6.00 a gallon. Smells really nice too.
There are many Sunoco 260 GT100 Locations that you can buy 100 octane if you feel safer with that.
If you want to wild you get 104 octane research fuel delivered to your door go here: http://www.vpracingfuels.com/page535437.html
But I don't think many of you will even throw a gallon in as a "just to see" test.
Believe me, I have all the respect in the world for Jim Bailey and everyone else on Renlist for that matter.
You'll just have to take my word on the fact that I don't talk smack.
As far as a scientific test as Jim suggests, I think that would be a great idea. Not sure how one would go about doing it though. Any ideas on that?
Not to get off topic too much, but you all really seem to know a lot about the later cars.
The only thing that I would like to try on my car would be to convert it to a later model computer control platform, as I believe this would allow me to use the Shark Tuner.
Would that be true?
Has anybody done this on a 16V?
I think I'll start a new thread on that.
11-14-2010, 07:00 PM
#90
Nordschleife Master
Apparently sometimes the wizard finds an old horse with 6 teeth and thinks they are all that way.
Wizards could also be talking about magic horses (what Dynojet HP is based on) where the number of teeth is still a mystery.
Wizards could also be talking about magic horses (what Dynojet HP is based on) where the number of teeth is still a mystery.