pcar928fan

Karl,

I don't think you will get even close to a factory level paint job and a PC full interior for $10k...I could be wrong, but the shop owned by the Pcar dealer here in Austin did a bunch of paint work on my car which was STILL not factory level work (but real close) and it cost almost $10k (a few hundred shy is all) and it DID NOT include roof, drivers door or front fender, hatch, wing or hood paint!

Add up Paul's work from the prices on his web site and then double that for the cost of install and I think the interior alone is over $10k. So, your car might look better than new for $20k plus the cost of the car. Not to mention if you are doing all that work you are also going to want to put in new carpets too...since the interior would be out of the car already, that would be a bit easier than just doing the carpet by itself.

Not trying to be discouraging here, just a warning to go in to this kind of stuff with your eyes WIDE OPEN and assume worst case scenario not best case! Of course if you are taking the car apart as Dean has done and doing the work yourself, well that is a different story altogether.

karl ruiter

Hi James
Not targeting to be better than factory new. Just need to be better than a $12K 22 year old 928 with factory paint.

mickster

Sold--speaking to the owner $6000...ugh--never got emails back from the guy. TB/WP done 3 years ago.

dr bob

Mick--

Go look at the S4 Beverly Hills car in NYC that came up this morning here. It's your purchase budget plus your first-year maintenance/restore budget twice, but it's all done and ready now.

pcar928fan

There you go. You can probably make that happen! Some targeted PC interior bits, new carpet and good (but maybe not Concours) paint and you will be GOOD TO GO with a car you can be quite proud of for the right price/value!

Hilton

Asking when/if the timing belt was last done isn't a question I even bother asking any more when looking at a 928.

Beyond the basic "do I bother talking to the seller" questions of looking at the advert and your key criteria (mileage, colour, model year etc.), in my opinion, the only bit of "history" needed is:

1. Does the original Service manual come with the car (this dealer-stamped book equals "history" for most future buyers of your car)
2. Is the interior and exterior in good/satisfactory condition?
3. Does the car run (i.e. engine and gearbox "ok" - not necessarily "good", just "ok", when run up to full temp - not just coolant temp.).
4. Any visible metal in the oil? (take some black card/paper along with you to drip from the dipstick after the engine's run up to temp)
5. Carfax or equivalent check on no salvage title, mileage, outstanding finance etc.
6. Negotiating points - what leaks, doesn't work, needs replacing/repair etc. compared to the advert and advertised price.

Item 3 is a little tricky if the car is automatic as you need to beware of thrust bearing failure hence item 4 (which also helps defend against 2/6 rod bearing death).

The wide diversity of mechanics' knowledge of 928's, and the owners (and previous owners) willingness to pay means that the chances of a TBWP job being done to *my* satisfaction are very very slim, so instead I count on doing the whole job once the car's mine. Cars with "recent timing belt" often don't have the tensioner rebuilt with new seals (or filled with oil), the cam gears checked for wear, etc. As long as the belt is intact and the engine runs (or turns over by starter motor or 27mm socket), that's good enough for me.

Having a full PPI done makes sense for 928's in the top end of the S4+ price bracket (anything above about the $17k mark), buy certainly for anything sub $10k a full PPI is a waste of money in my opinion.

If you're not planning on doing the mechanical work yourself, then your budget needs to be looking at the $17k+ cars only for S4's, as otherwise the deferred maintenance will kill you and you'll end up spending more than $17k on your $10k car in very short order.

Of course, some enjoy the thrill of the chase more than the kill.. in which case keep shopping

Happy hunting

Hilton

Just a quick follow-up on deferred maintenance.

Most S4-onwards need the following done to them:

Fuel lines replaced
Cam/oil pump gear replacement
Cam chain tensioners
Knock sensors
Shocks
Engine mounts

This is aside from the usual raft of repairs that crop up which may or may not have been fixed (throttle position switch, radiator end tank, weeping cam seals, very old MAF, vacuum leaks etc.).

Not to mention the standard maintenance according to service schedule (fluids, filters, plugs, caps/rotors).

The above is why I'd expect to spend $7k on almost any S4 purchase if you were paying someone to do the work , except at the high end of the market where the car really has been pampered by an enthusiast(ic) owner.

Jerry Feather

CONGRATULATIONS!!!! The 89 S4 on eBay closed out for $6600 and I would have to guess that that had to be you. Nice going. I think that was one of the best deals of the season. That looks like a really nice car. For that kind of money and this market I think it was worth you taking the small gamble on what it might need, but with the extra $3400 in you budget and a little bit of sweat equity, you will be in a really nice car right in your budget.

On the other hand, if you let that one slip away, why are you wasting out time with your initial inquiry? What are you waiting for to buy a suitable 928. Are you hoping for an essentially new car for a price that fits your budget? If so, you are barking up the wrong tree. You may need to take your $10,000 and put it down on a Prius and get on with your summer.

Jerry Feather

auzivision

Maybe we should agree to disagree. I agree it’s not worth driving around a 928 that looks like **** and many sub $10K FIT this category. However, I don’t agree that ALL sub $10K S4s look like ****.

This 54k/mile pristine S4 sold for less than $10K with full documented records from day one. There was some speculation that it may have been in an accident, but no hard evidence one way or the other.

http://reutterwerk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15570

I already stated in this thread that most S4 would not be worth repainting or redoing the interior (from a purely economic standpoint).

https://rennlist.com/forums/7658090-post6.html

You’ll never get you money back and I understand that’s not always the primary driver… just that was the tone of the original post.

I guess what I’m trying to say is not many S4s out there worth more than $15k in today’s market. I’m sure there are many that wish it were otherwise (myself included), but the truth is our cars aren’t selling for what these cars are worth to us.

To me cars fit somewhere on a continuum from collectors to drivers to beaters to scrap. Only the best of the best with low mileage (less than 50K and more likely 30K and usually something unique fit the collector category (bookends (early/late models), special edditons, colors, options) are collectors (Willhoit stuff).

An S4 is just about as generic of a 928 as one can get… in fact 1987 basically mid production with biggest numbers and all S4’s. So S4 really don’t command collector premiums. At the same time, S4 can offer the best value as a driver. A driver won’t win concourse d'elegance, but would be respectable looking in any country club parking lot.

My car started out as a nice driver and still looks pretty decent. My goal is to thrash it till it’s scrap while spending money on it like it’s a collector and enjoying every minute of it. I wouldn’t sell it for $15K for two reasons… one it’s worth more to me than that and two… it’s not worth $15K to someone else.

Sometimes reality hurts.

blown 87

I strongly disagree with that.

Landseer

Damn. I need to stop buying them sight-unseen.

James, you bought that last Euro without a lot of scrutiny, right?

pcar928fan

There are ALWAYS going to be great deals around...we already covered that and you certainly can't expect to find one of those on command. Those are the needles in haystacks that all of us as collectors jump on fast.

The fact is that it is a RARE S4 for under $10k that looks half way decent. Torn up seats, faded paint, questionable mechanicals...that is what you are MOST LIKELY to get for under $10k in the S4 market. The fact is that the gap narrows every year. The beaters fall fast, the not so nice drivers fall a little and the really nice well sorted but still highish (say over 60k miles but under 100k miles) fall a bit faster than the mid cars, so they get closer in price all the time. In 2 or 3 years $10k will probably buy a decent looking and decent running S4... rarely will that happen today though.

blown 87

I doubt ten grand will ever buy a well sorted 928 of any year model, the kind a person can get in and drive across the country.

karl ruiter

Mechanically, my $4K S4 was pretty sound. Belt tension and condition were good, crank end play was good. It is an 88 so there are no boots on the brake pistons so they were dragging a bit until I popped them out and cleaned up the calipers. I replaced the P.S. rack. The biggest performance problem was that the kick plate next to the throttle pedal was installed with the tab in the wrong place. The pedal only went about half way down. Still needs cam cover gaskets and I need to re-attach the vacume modulator on the trans, but it is usable as a daily driver now.

Hilton

The word "full" is there for a reason. For auto's, its worth paying a mechanic who actually knows 928's to check the crank end play and also the rear pinch bolt.

Beyond that, frankly most PPI's will tell you the list of things I mentioned in my follow-up post.. none of which is ground-breaking news. Oh, they'll also usually mention excessive play in the steering rack and front suspension and that the bushings need to be replaced. None of which is newsworthy.. or worth paying someone $300 for.

edit: I just realised.. Canada and presumably the US don't have annual safety inspections for all vehicles over 5 years old, do they?

In which case, yes, it is worth paying someone to get the brakes, steering, lights, body etc. all checked out to make sure the car is roadworthy. I'm used to Australia, New Zealand and the UK, where cars must pass an annual inspection including checking for leaks, structural rust, computerised brake tests to a minimum G at set speeds, and more. Thus making sure the car is roadworthy isn't a big deal here.. if it has current registration, its been inspected within the last 12 months to a set of criteria.