Who has the best radiator?
04-20-2010 | 01:00 AM
#46
Rest in Peace
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From: Bird lover in Sharpsburg
Thanks Greg, and yes it answers my questions.
A stack of washers is never a good solution to a problem, neither is a abrasive cut off wheel that so many aftermarket radiators need for other makes of cars.
When a customer comes in and wants to know how much to install his new "custom" what ever, it is sometimes hard to make them understand why i can not, and will not give them a price on it.
A stack of washers is never a good solution to a problem, neither is a abrasive cut off wheel that so many aftermarket radiators need for other makes of cars.
When a customer comes in and wants to know how much to install his new "custom" what ever, it is sometimes hard to make them understand why i can not, and will not give them a price on it.
Greg:
Actually, this all started when it occurred to me that we could add a radiator cooler into the late model cars (post '90.) They suck in traffic, as I mentioned. Since we usually install a 928 International universal radiator into these cars (cheaper than stock), all of these radiators had an engine oil cooler in them anyway...that was just sitting there doing nothing.
We rounded up all the old hose sets we could find and then made both replacement hoses for the stock oil cooler and then made up hoses to add this "extra cooler" (in the radiator), to the system.
Our oil cooler will also have the hoses in the approximate stock location, although the hoses will need to be slightly different, because we are going to use AN threaded oil coolers and build AN to German adaptors for the cars that use the stock hoses. (Anyone that has used either a Devek or a 928 International radiator has had to remove the stock oil cooler adaptors from the original radiator and then install them with a stack of aluminum washers into the aluminum radiator. This offends me, so whenever I install a 928 International radiator, I machine these fittings down, so they only use one sealing ring, not a stack. I'm doing this differently, so the "home" guy doesn't need to use the original fittings, eliminating this problem completely.
The post 1990 cars are the ones that really suffer, as they have nothing but air cooling the oil...which clearly sucks, in traffic.
Yes, every single one of these cars needs to be modified to have the extra "water cooler"....unless they live somewhere where there is very little traffic and the outside temperatures are very mild. (Like Germany)
Certainly, if someone had an existing radiator with an oil cooler on the driver's side, they could add this cooler into the system, with only a hose set. This means that anyone that has purchased one of 928 International's universal radiators and installed it into their post '90 car could simply change the hoses and be done.
I'm not far enough along to have brackets and pieces to modify the earlier cars (pre '90) to accept an additional air to oil cooler...and I'm not sure these people have as big a problem....since their oil temperature should follow the water temperature fairly closely. However, cars that have a supercharger system might be taxing the oil temperature, even on these cars, so we will be making pieces to add this cooler to these cars.
Does this answer your questions?
Actually, this all started when it occurred to me that we could add a radiator cooler into the late model cars (post '90.) They suck in traffic, as I mentioned. Since we usually install a 928 International universal radiator into these cars (cheaper than stock), all of these radiators had an engine oil cooler in them anyway...that was just sitting there doing nothing.
We rounded up all the old hose sets we could find and then made both replacement hoses for the stock oil cooler and then made up hoses to add this "extra cooler" (in the radiator), to the system.
Our oil cooler will also have the hoses in the approximate stock location, although the hoses will need to be slightly different, because we are going to use AN threaded oil coolers and build AN to German adaptors for the cars that use the stock hoses. (Anyone that has used either a Devek or a 928 International radiator has had to remove the stock oil cooler adaptors from the original radiator and then install them with a stack of aluminum washers into the aluminum radiator. This offends me, so whenever I install a 928 International radiator, I machine these fittings down, so they only use one sealing ring, not a stack. I'm doing this differently, so the "home" guy doesn't need to use the original fittings, eliminating this problem completely.
The post 1990 cars are the ones that really suffer, as they have nothing but air cooling the oil...which clearly sucks, in traffic.
Yes, every single one of these cars needs to be modified to have the extra "water cooler"....unless they live somewhere where there is very little traffic and the outside temperatures are very mild. (Like Germany)
Certainly, if someone had an existing radiator with an oil cooler on the driver's side, they could add this cooler into the system, with only a hose set. This means that anyone that has purchased one of 928 International's universal radiators and installed it into their post '90 car could simply change the hoses and be done.
I'm not far enough along to have brackets and pieces to modify the earlier cars (pre '90) to accept an additional air to oil cooler...and I'm not sure these people have as big a problem....since their oil temperature should follow the water temperature fairly closely. However, cars that have a supercharger system might be taxing the oil temperature, even on these cars, so we will be making pieces to add this cooler to these cars.
Does this answer your questions?
04-20-2010 | 01:01 AM
#47
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From: Australia
Greg,
Considering the fact that there is only so much area you have to get air flow through to do the cooling, whats going to provide a leap in cooling capacity? Thicker core, more tubes, more fins ?
The early cars have cores 10mm lower in height ,but thicker (I think 4 rows of tubes F->B), but fewer tubes (33 vs 42 IIRC). The later rads are 3 rows of tubes F->B, but the extra density of tubes produces a higher total no of them. I dont know any details, but I doubt there is a big difference in cooling capacity.
jp 83 Euro S 52k
Considering the fact that there is only so much area you have to get air flow through to do the cooling, whats going to provide a leap in cooling capacity? Thicker core, more tubes, more fins ?
The early cars have cores 10mm lower in height ,but thicker (I think 4 rows of tubes F->B), but fewer tubes (33 vs 42 IIRC). The later rads are 3 rows of tubes F->B, but the extra density of tubes produces a higher total no of them. I dont know any details, but I doubt there is a big difference in cooling capacity.
jp 83 Euro S 52k
04-20-2010 | 01:49 PM
#48
Former Vendor
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: Anaheim
Greg,
Considering the fact that there is only so much area you have to get air flow through to do the cooling, whats going to provide a leap in cooling capacity? Thicker core, more tubes, more fins ?
The early cars have cores 10mm lower in height ,but thicker (I think 4 rows of tubes F->B), but fewer tubes (33 vs 42 IIRC). The later rads are 3 rows of tubes F->B, but the extra density of tubes produces a higher total no of them. I dont know any details, but I doubt there is a big difference in cooling capacity.
jp 83 Euro S 52k
Considering the fact that there is only so much area you have to get air flow through to do the cooling, whats going to provide a leap in cooling capacity? Thicker core, more tubes, more fins ?
The early cars have cores 10mm lower in height ,but thicker (I think 4 rows of tubes F->B), but fewer tubes (33 vs 42 IIRC). The later rads are 3 rows of tubes F->B, but the extra density of tubes produces a higher total no of them. I dont know any details, but I doubt there is a big difference in cooling capacity.
jp 83 Euro S 52k
Increased thermal load on a cooling system that is old, will cause problems, but even our strokers will survive with a newer stock radiator.
We do want to increase the thermal capacity of the radiator, but because the stock unit works so well, we don't need to make huge improvements. A ten or twenty percent change over a new stock radiator would be adequate for almost any engine, any climate, any use.
Ten or twenty percent inprovement can be found by just using current radiator construction/core designs. Add an "extra" row of tubes/bigger tubes and the cooling system is quickly over 50 percent better.
This allows us to safely add in the cooling of the oil to the thermal load of the water cooling system.
06-16-2010 | 07:53 PM
#52
Fleet of Foot
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From: We are there!(San Diego)
I'll have firm prices, this next week. We are going to only supply the radiators with the oil coolers that people need. (We won't be installing transmission oil coolers into stick shift cars.) Therefore the prices will vary, a bit.
If you read my previous post, I think that almost all 928's need a radiator with an engine oil cooler...although we will make radiators without that cooler, for the people that don't want to change their oiling system.
Our goal was to make a new, better radiator, at/near the same price as 928 International's current radiators. Mark is aware we are building a new radiator....we've discussed this, before I decided to have them built. Hopefully he will sell ours, when he uses up his current supply.
If you read my previous post, I think that almost all 928's need a radiator with an engine oil cooler...although we will make radiators without that cooler, for the people that don't want to change their oiling system.
Our goal was to make a new, better radiator, at/near the same price as 928 International's current radiators. Mark is aware we are building a new radiator....we've discussed this, before I decided to have them built. Hopefully he will sell ours, when he uses up his current supply.
09-04-2010 | 01:49 AM
#56
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From: Australia
Another observation to add. My 83 has an aftermarket copy of an S4 rad - 3 tubes as mentioned above. Core is probably ~1.5" thick front to back. My son recently bought a Ford Territory (Oz made & sold only I believe - like a small Exploder, very popular here) with the 4L in line 6 in it. Radiator core - 5/8" tops, looks like only room for 1 cross tube. One electric fan behind core, looks like 16" dia, but maybe a bit bigger. No fan in front of AC condenser. Our peak temps here up north will be comparable to southern USA. I think part of its advantage will be a much more roomy engine bay to let hot air escape down and out the back.
jp 83 Euro S AT 52k.
jp 83 Euro S AT 52k.
09-05-2010 | 10:57 PM
#58
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From: Southern Utah
I bought an original Buhl (or whatever they are called) from auto parts warehouse. Had it in 2 days. I think it was in the mid 600$ range. I didnt see an issue with going to a new OEM being the first one lasted 25 years. Just saying if you are in a hurry
09-09-2010 | 05:15 PM
#60
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Joined: May 2007
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From: Burbank, CA
Greg,
I, too, am interested in the "new" radiator you are working on and hope you will let the 928 community know when/if they become available. Its great that people are still working out solutions, new parts and modified parts for these cars (particularly since I have 4 of them now...)
I, too, am interested in the "new" radiator you are working on and hope you will let the 928 community know when/if they become available. Its great that people are still working out solutions, new parts and modified parts for these cars (particularly since I have 4 of them now...)