Intercooler: air to air
#1
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Has anyone built an air to air intercooler setup for a centrifical S/C? Either a front mount or a wheel well type with air intake?
#2
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Todd did. He is not on here, other than to read - no posting. What did you need to know? Pictures?
#4
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Some photos
![](http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads14/IMG_30151225236666.jpg)
![](http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads14/IMG_30151225236666.jpg)
![](http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads14/IMG_30171225236860.jpg)
![](http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads14/IMG_30191225415179.jpg)
Last edited by Gretch; 04-13-2010 at 08:56 AM. Reason: banned vendor, no free advertising.
#5
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http://www.erik27.com/todd/turbo/index.htm
Its quite thick. Same basic idea as the first one.
#7
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The air-to-water-to-air has the advantage of relatively small liquid piping connecting the two exchangers, so the two parts can be mounted where it makes the most sense. If it weren't for that darm water bridge on the front of the motor, and an intake with a forward inlet would support a pretty decent air-to-air unit in front of the existing radiator with relatively short and simple connections from the kompressor and back to the intake.
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#8
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It's all theory until you install and make it fit.
I've seen some horrific air / air cores that couldn't cool an Eskimo in winter and equally bad air / water setups.
Long story short, it's very hard to compare apples to apples. Most people are testing their intake air temp with sensors that are not fast enough for a proper reading, giving huge false positives. A sender designed for oil / water is not going to work for a proper intake air temp reading.
Air / air IC's are great, if you can get them good airflow, ducting etc....and make them fit. You can "get away with" more, especially with a street car, going air / water.
Why?
IMO it's much easier to build an efficient air/ water system. They also package up better / easier which is what has made them so popular in kits.
With 928's that use the windshield tank, you have 3+ gallons of water sitting at close to ambient temperature waiting for you to drop the hammer. Unless you have a cop free zone, you are never going to be on boost long enough to heat soak all three gallons.
IMO the amount of extra fabricating, cutting etc... to even equal my air / water setup, much less surpass it, just isn't worth it.
I could have an air / air if I wanted, just drop my car off at Todd's house for a weekend. After seeing the performance of my new IC on Shane Elliot's car a few years ago, it hardly seams worth the effort for possibly zero or little gain.
The Bugatti Veyron, McLaren SLR and even the ZR1 Corvette have air / water inter-coolers.
The SLR is an interesting example. Testers were experiencing heat soak situations in high temp conditions while doing top speed runs.
The solution?
Higher output water pump for the IC system, that was all it took to further increase the efficiency of that system.
I'm sure if the "better" solution were air/ air inter-coolers, a team of engineers like McLaren could have figured it out and gone that route. Much less the team behind the Veyron.
Sure a properly sized air / air might have been superior, the design worked out better going air / water.
I'm not saying one system is always better or always worse, each has it's own set of compromises. If I ever boost my track car I'll probably go with an air / air system.
On my street 81? Not necessary and I'm pushing over 17psi with room to increase that once my new intake is installed.
As for which medium cools better, try this experiment. Stand naked in a freezer set to 35 degrees, see how long you can stand it. Now warm up, and go jump in 35 degree water. I think we all know the answer to this.
If you have a hot piece of metal to cool down, few people go for the air compressor, most use a bucket of water.![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
As for Todd's air / air IC's, he has a 3 gallon custom tank full of water ready to spray down the IC to increase it's efficiency (pics coming soon). So in a way, even with that massive air / air core up front, he's still relying on water to further enhance the system.......
I've seen some horrific air / air cores that couldn't cool an Eskimo in winter and equally bad air / water setups.
Long story short, it's very hard to compare apples to apples. Most people are testing their intake air temp with sensors that are not fast enough for a proper reading, giving huge false positives. A sender designed for oil / water is not going to work for a proper intake air temp reading.
Air / air IC's are great, if you can get them good airflow, ducting etc....and make them fit. You can "get away with" more, especially with a street car, going air / water.
Why?
IMO it's much easier to build an efficient air/ water system. They also package up better / easier which is what has made them so popular in kits.
With 928's that use the windshield tank, you have 3+ gallons of water sitting at close to ambient temperature waiting for you to drop the hammer. Unless you have a cop free zone, you are never going to be on boost long enough to heat soak all three gallons.
IMO the amount of extra fabricating, cutting etc... to even equal my air / water setup, much less surpass it, just isn't worth it.
I could have an air / air if I wanted, just drop my car off at Todd's house for a weekend. After seeing the performance of my new IC on Shane Elliot's car a few years ago, it hardly seams worth the effort for possibly zero or little gain.
The Bugatti Veyron, McLaren SLR and even the ZR1 Corvette have air / water inter-coolers.
The SLR is an interesting example. Testers were experiencing heat soak situations in high temp conditions while doing top speed runs.
The solution?
Higher output water pump for the IC system, that was all it took to further increase the efficiency of that system.
I'm sure if the "better" solution were air/ air inter-coolers, a team of engineers like McLaren could have figured it out and gone that route. Much less the team behind the Veyron.
Sure a properly sized air / air might have been superior, the design worked out better going air / water.
I'm not saying one system is always better or always worse, each has it's own set of compromises. If I ever boost my track car I'll probably go with an air / air system.
On my street 81? Not necessary and I'm pushing over 17psi with room to increase that once my new intake is installed.
As for which medium cools better, try this experiment. Stand naked in a freezer set to 35 degrees, see how long you can stand it. Now warm up, and go jump in 35 degree water. I think we all know the answer to this.
If you have a hot piece of metal to cool down, few people go for the air compressor, most use a bucket of water.
![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
As for Todd's air / air IC's, he has a 3 gallon custom tank full of water ready to spray down the IC to increase it's efficiency (pics coming soon). So in a way, even with that massive air / air core up front, he's still relying on water to further enhance the system.......
#9
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I agree with this. The only case where air-to-water intercooler is clearly superior is in a boat that can waste the water coolant.
#10
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Why? The first system as a whole was superior. There is more to it than simply the type of IC.
It all depends on the application, installation and design of each system.
#11
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Air to air is hard to get right in terms of air flow, but once you get it right it's probably the best solution for extended periods of high boost.
If you can figure out clean air flow, air-to-air is actually a simpler system than water-to-air-to-water.
Renault F1s used both, I recall. First the air-to-water-to-air is the first-stage pre-cooling and then air-to-air after that.
I'm not saying one system is always better or always worse, each has it's own set of compromises. If I ever boost my track car I'll probably go with an air / air system.
On my street 81? Not necessary and I'm pushing over 17psi with room to increase that once my new intake is installed.
As for Todd's air / air IC's, he has a 3 gallon custom tank full of water ready to spray down the IC to increase it's efficiency (pics coming soon). So in a way, even with that massive air / air core up front, he's still relying on water to further enhance the system.......
On my street 81? Not necessary and I'm pushing over 17psi with room to increase that once my new intake is installed.
As for Todd's air / air IC's, he has a 3 gallon custom tank full of water ready to spray down the IC to increase it's efficiency (pics coming soon). So in a way, even with that massive air / air core up front, he's still relying on water to further enhance the system.......
For a drag car or a dyno queen or anything that lasts less than a minute, ice water filled air-to-water intercooler is unbeatable.
Horses for the courses.
#12
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I've personally seen cars "upgraded" from air/water to air/air only to see intake air temps rise. Why? The first system as a whole was superior. There is more to it than simply the type of IC. It all depends on the application, installation and design of each system.
The other thing that is often ignored is the pressure drop due to the intercooler size.
#13
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The Procharger setups for the C4 Corvettes use air to air, the early models like mine use a very large single unit infront of the radiator and it works well, the latter C4's use twin smaller units that are mounted in front of the wheels, they work like they were not there and are very restrictive.
This has zero bearing on a 928 set up, but I have over 80,000 miles on it, so you can take that for what ever it is worth. (12 PSI)
This has zero bearing on a 928 set up, but I have over 80,000 miles on it, so you can take that for what ever it is worth. (12 PSI)
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I will also say this about my Vette, when the new engine goes in it is getting a meth injection setup from here
http://www.blowerworks.net/
Some of the C4 guys have reported huge boost increases by removing the intercooler, one guy with the same head unit I have, but with far better heads is running almost 30 PSI, and friends, that is one VERY fast Corvette.
http://www.blowerworks.net/
Some of the C4 guys have reported huge boost increases by removing the intercooler, one guy with the same head unit I have, but with far better heads is running almost 30 PSI, and friends, that is one VERY fast Corvette.
#15
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The Procharger setups for the C4 Corvettes use air to air, the early models like mine use a very large single unit infront of the radiator and it works well, the latter C4's use twin smaller units that are mounted in front of the wheels, they work like they were not there and are very restrictive. This has zero bearing on a 928 set up, but I have over 80,000 miles on it, so you can take that for what ever it is worth. (12 PSI)
I will also say this about my Vette, when the new engine goes in it is getting a meth injection setup from here http://www.blowerworks.net/ Some of the C4 guys have reported huge boost increases by removing the intercooler, one guy with the same head unit I have, but with far better heads is running almost 30 PSI, and friends, that is one VERY fast Corvette.
One day, someone will build a 928 that moves the rear AC unit to where the stock air box is and will run it as an intercooler. First, an air to air precooler and then AC-based supercooler. I did the simple version of the math a year ago, and this would let one run stupid boost levels on an otherwise stock '87 928 S4 engine.