how many 928s are left in the world?
10-11-2009, 07:12 PM
#31
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I bought my shark in '92 and drove it as a dd for 8 years, putting 100k on it. it is semi-retired now, looks like it is brand new, smells like it did the day I brought it home, runs like a CHAMP and has undergone a supercharger install which I did myself (with Tim Murphy designed technology). It has been reliable, not ever let me down and is the ONLY car I have ever owned for and drove for 18 years. No other car ever lasted THAT long..
Maintenance wise, it has been the best car I have ever owned, right up there with my A6 bi-turbo quattro and my chevy tahoe.
I do virtually all of my own wrenching and I have not found the shark any more difficult to work on than any other car. Hell my 2000 C4 puked up a tranny at 100k..... THAT was the most expensive and major repair I have ever had on a car in my whole life, and I am NOT IMPRESSED!
I bought my last Porsche., and I still have it.
Complicated, vs well designed and exceptionally well built. The difference is in the committment of the mechanic.
Hell if all you are doing is ripping them apart, use a porta-power....... and quiet down.
Build one, maintain one, do what Sterling has done, or Brendan or Hinerich, or Carl or Mark...... etc, etc, etc....then come and opine on the design quality.
Best , finest, most solid car I can imaging competing in the ORR races, ever. You don't like "well designed"? drive a Geo.
Maintenance wise, it has been the best car I have ever owned, right up there with my A6 bi-turbo quattro and my chevy tahoe.
I do virtually all of my own wrenching and I have not found the shark any more difficult to work on than any other car. Hell my 2000 C4 puked up a tranny at 100k..... THAT was the most expensive and major repair I have ever had on a car in my whole life, and I am NOT IMPRESSED!
I bought my last Porsche., and I still have it.
Complicated, vs well designed and exceptionally well built. The difference is in the committment of the mechanic.
Hell if all you are doing is ripping them apart, use a porta-power....... and quiet down.
Build one, maintain one, do what Sterling has done, or Brendan or Hinerich, or Carl or Mark...... etc, etc, etc....then come and opine on the design quality.
Best , finest, most solid car I can imaging competing in the ORR races, ever. You don't like "well designed"? drive a Geo.
10-11-2009, 07:19 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
I think it's ridiculous to compare a 928 with an Acura or a Lexus, or other car of that ilk. The more appropriate comparison would be with a Ferrari, a Corvette, Masserati, Lambo, and so forth. That's the class it was intended to compete in, and it redifined the GT car in its time (and still today, IMO). Comparing it to the appropriate class of cars may indicate that it is actually less maintanence intensive and less expensive to keep up with than its peers.
Since you mentioned the NSX which I have 2 currently and have had 4 total, the car is pretty much a high performance Honda which is very well built and reliable. Yes, it has very high performance even more so than the 928 and came out in 1991 but the electrical, AC, and all the little things are just plain old honda Civic reliable.
Steve
10-11-2009, 08:37 PM
#33
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That also won countless feats of high speed stamina and road holding capability over the last 40 years.....
I love the 928..... It's a gentleman's ride for sure. The 911 is a race car (albeit in beetle genealogy)
10-11-2009, 09:16 PM
#34
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Ok, I haven't work that much in my 928 mechanic... But while there is many... Flaw of design for maintenance (tranny oil access?), it's terribly well design to do one thing... Run.
Mine is 30 years old, in bad shape (inside and out), but only for the small thing. Visual, AC, vinyl, etc.
But it run! And it run! People when they hear it start are all like "WTF? 30 years old?!". I admit I was lucky to get a non-interference one.
The vacuum leak, the oil leak, the tranny leak, vapor leak inside, everything leak! But it run really well.
On top, it will never rust.
Try to find a 'Stang, Vette or other that are 30+ years old that haven't rust a bit. Not that easy.
Mine is 30 years old, in bad shape (inside and out), but only for the small thing. Visual, AC, vinyl, etc.
But it run! And it run! People when they hear it start are all like "WTF? 30 years old?!". I admit I was lucky to get a non-interference one.
The vacuum leak, the oil leak, the tranny leak, vapor leak inside, everything leak! But it run really well.
On top, it will never rust.
Try to find a 'Stang, Vette or other that are 30+ years old that haven't rust a bit. Not that easy.
10-11-2009, 09:18 PM
#35
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I know what I'm about to say is not going to go over well with some of you.
I really think that 928 reliability has everything to do with the previoius owners care and maintenance. If you bought a 928 at a low price with no records and or a list of items which you knew required repair then you shouldn't be posting on this thread or complaining about maintenance costs. There's plenty of info on the internet that warns againsts buying a high performance car that doesn't have up to date maintenance. You can either pay up front or pay for the repairs to get it where you want it, either way you're going to pay.
Neither of my last two sharks have cost more than 1500/year in maintenance.... IMHO that is an unbelievable bargain considering the cars are 20 years old and capable of outperforming many current cars with a whole lot more style.
Pretty frustrating to read some of this.
And for those VW guys complaining about the 928....they should not be talking. I owned a Golf which I purchased new that offered a 1/3 of the performance, 1/10 of the luxury/looks of my shark and cost much more to own due to the rediculous problems it had. Someone needs to educate them.
Rant off...
I really think that 928 reliability has everything to do with the previoius owners care and maintenance. If you bought a 928 at a low price with no records and or a list of items which you knew required repair then you shouldn't be posting on this thread or complaining about maintenance costs. There's plenty of info on the internet that warns againsts buying a high performance car that doesn't have up to date maintenance. You can either pay up front or pay for the repairs to get it where you want it, either way you're going to pay.
Neither of my last two sharks have cost more than 1500/year in maintenance.... IMHO that is an unbelievable bargain considering the cars are 20 years old and capable of outperforming many current cars with a whole lot more style.
Pretty frustrating to read some of this.
And for those VW guys complaining about the 928....they should not be talking. I owned a Golf which I purchased new that offered a 1/3 of the performance, 1/10 of the luxury/looks of my shark and cost much more to own due to the rediculous problems it had. Someone needs to educate them.
Rant off...
10-11-2009, 09:19 PM
#36
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Perhaps it's unfair to compare with a new Acura or Lexus. New vs used? 100k cars at 20+ years? Are there any used Acuras around that fit the description?
I compared mine with a new Honda Civc for cost when I bought mine with 22k on it.
Real comparison is other cars of similar or at least claimed-similar performance of the same era. '89 Corvette a good example? How much is an undermaintained Vette going for, relative to a similar 928? How about comparing excellent examples of the same cars? Good news is that you can use Bel-Air parts to 'fix' Corvettes, so cost-of-ownership may not be as bad. But if you want to keep the cars in good original well-maintained condition, no car is exempt from costs. Bulletin: 200k Acuras are rare because they are sold and neglected as their maintainance costs exceed the average market price. Sound familiar? Chicken or egg...
----
My last 911 (mid-80's vintage) took more than 4 bolts to remove the engine. Yes, there are (still) four main bolts that hold the engine and gearbox together. My feeble memory includes a rear crossbrace and some bolts that hold the engine up at the back. FI plumbing, electrical, oil plumbing, AC plumbing, other hoses and a cable or three. The rear of the gearbox needs to be supported too whenever the engine isn't there to hold it up.
There is no comparison between the cars as far as build quality, engineering excellence, ease of maintenance. There are plenty of folks experienced with 911 work. How did that happen? Many more of them needed work. With that glut of talent and experience, it became fashionable to open repair and service places that cater to the special needs of 911 owners. Not quite as bad as F-car owners of the seventies and eightees for instance, it still seemed like the owners required more pampering and care than the cars we so cherished.
My 928 has been trouble-free and bulletproof, with regular care and maintenance. It is my daily driver, as all of my previous Porsches have been. Admittedly, my history of DD's has been splattered with other fabulously reliable examples from Porsche (5), Lotus (5), Saab (3), Ferrari (1), VW (3), MG (3), Mazda (3), Rover(1), DeTomaso (1), and peppered with some uninteresting American stuff that filled in the 'utility' and 'company car' slots. Maybe I have a bad perspective. No clue how all those long-lost toys have fared since they escaped my care. But so far the 928 is doing just great, and takes a whole lot less mechanical attention than any of the other Porsches did. The 911 was easy to work on all the time. 928 is a little tougher for some things, but services are much fewer and more widely spaced. But again, they are very different cars built for and purchased by me for very different purposes.
So count mine as still on the road.
I compared mine with a new Honda Civc for cost when I bought mine with 22k on it.
Real comparison is other cars of similar or at least claimed-similar performance of the same era. '89 Corvette a good example? How much is an undermaintained Vette going for, relative to a similar 928? How about comparing excellent examples of the same cars? Good news is that you can use Bel-Air parts to 'fix' Corvettes, so cost-of-ownership may not be as bad. But if you want to keep the cars in good original well-maintained condition, no car is exempt from costs. Bulletin: 200k Acuras are rare because they are sold and neglected as their maintainance costs exceed the average market price. Sound familiar? Chicken or egg...
----
My last 911 (mid-80's vintage) took more than 4 bolts to remove the engine. Yes, there are (still) four main bolts that hold the engine and gearbox together. My feeble memory includes a rear crossbrace and some bolts that hold the engine up at the back. FI plumbing, electrical, oil plumbing, AC plumbing, other hoses and a cable or three. The rear of the gearbox needs to be supported too whenever the engine isn't there to hold it up.
There is no comparison between the cars as far as build quality, engineering excellence, ease of maintenance. There are plenty of folks experienced with 911 work. How did that happen? Many more of them needed work. With that glut of talent and experience, it became fashionable to open repair and service places that cater to the special needs of 911 owners. Not quite as bad as F-car owners of the seventies and eightees for instance, it still seemed like the owners required more pampering and care than the cars we so cherished.
My 928 has been trouble-free and bulletproof, with regular care and maintenance. It is my daily driver, as all of my previous Porsches have been. Admittedly, my history of DD's has been splattered with other fabulously reliable examples from Porsche (5), Lotus (5), Saab (3), Ferrari (1), VW (3), MG (3), Mazda (3), Rover(1), DeTomaso (1), and peppered with some uninteresting American stuff that filled in the 'utility' and 'company car' slots. Maybe I have a bad perspective. No clue how all those long-lost toys have fared since they escaped my care. But so far the 928 is doing just great, and takes a whole lot less mechanical attention than any of the other Porsches did. The 911 was easy to work on all the time. 928 is a little tougher for some things, but services are much fewer and more widely spaced. But again, they are very different cars built for and purchased by me for very different purposes.
So count mine as still on the road.
10-11-2009, 09:27 PM
#38
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10-11-2009, 09:45 PM
#40
Nordschleife Master
I think Aston Martin already built it and it is called the Vantage V12. Porsche missed the boat. Everytime I see a 928, I stopped and admire how beautiful the car is. I think the AM Vantage is the closest thing to the great 928 if it were still built in this century.
Steve
Steve
I agree with you 100% on AM looks! Ever since I saw the first AMV8 I thought THAT IS THE CAR PORSCHE SHOULD HAVE BUILT!!! They are GORGEOUS! If they wanted to be further up market than look no further than the DB9...maybe do it a bit shorter w/ the Panamera drivetrain and that would be some kind of car. Alas, once again Porsche has missed the boat and the mark!
10-11-2009, 09:50 PM
#41
Nordschleife Master
The 928 is not overly complicated. It's just an old car with very expensive parts, and a lot of luxury features. Any car that is 20 years old with comparable features that has not had any form of continued maintenance will have all of the problems you mention. Your 89' 911 might have less problems, but I'd like to compare real maintenance records between the two cars. If both cars are maintained fully, the 928 is a superior car in every way except for status quo IMHO.
10-11-2009, 10:00 PM
#42
Nordschleife Master
If the 928 is not overly complicated, I don't know what is. As much as I like the 928 since being a teenager, I was always alarmed by how unreliable the car is. EVERY single 928 that I have come across have had many minor and major repairs. Almost all have AC problems, new torque tubes, cooling, electrical, interior deteriorations, and many more. To say that it is just old with expensive parts is really making excuses for it. If the car is just an "old car" with expensive parts, then it clearly is breaking more than my previous BMW 635, MB 560SEC and Jaguar XJS before. I thought the XJS was the most complicated of all but it is no match to the 928. The labor cost to work on the 928 is much higher than on other Porsches. I am talking about from the same Porsche mechanics I have been using for 27 years. He was trained in Porsche factory and he has been working on all my 4 911 Carreras and will be now my 928. He has had long experiences with the 928. To him, the 928 is excessively complicated to work on. Even a simple vacuum leak is expensive to fix. My sister's Acura Legend is also a 1987 as my 928S4 and her car is pretty much trouble-free except needing a new AC evaporator and a window switch. Now at 130k miles, it is running just fine. It is an old car, but a very reliable old car. It is as luxurious as the 928 without the complicated useless stuff such as the air flaps. I am not knocking the 928 which has been my all time favourite. However, one needs to be realistic that it is no where near the word "reliable." I am finally willing to take the plunge to have bought one since now I have more garage space to work on it if need to, fully knowing that there will be a lot of financial and time commitment to keep such a beautiful car. No need to be so biased with the 928, I am a car lover. I like many cars and the 928 is by no means superior to the 911 in ALL aspects. At least the reliability part, the 928 is far inferior to the 911 and to many other German cars.
Steve
Steve
Did you READ what you wrote??? Not knocking the 928??? Everything you said is critical of the 928 and after ONE MONTH ownership of possibly someone ELSE's PROBLEM CAR! This is completely unfair. If you had bought the car new, then FINE... if you had owned it for a year AND worked out the initial bugs (that pissed the previous owner off enough to sell it) and they then broke again, fine, but to have a car for a month, well, you might want to listen to those who have owned 928's for a decade or more first.
No A/C issues with my '94 GTS (YET...it is a weak spot), no motor problems with ANY of my 928's, 10k track miles w/o changing the trans fluid was a bad idea in my S4 and it has also had a steering rack. No TT's in any of my cars. Leave a 911 outside like many of the 928's have been abused and I would submit that interior will fall apart just as bad as a 928's.
Get back to us 12 months after you have FIXED (I mean REALLY FIXED TOO) all the current issues and then lets see how your experience has been.
10-11-2009, 10:08 PM
#43
Drifting
As far as how many left...I know that OB's are dropping out of sight faster than the US dollar. As soon as I get back to work I need to find a nice one before its too late.
10-11-2009, 10:14 PM
#44
Nordschleife Master
One last one here Steve... If that is your comparitor, then where does that leave NEW Ferrari's, Lotus, Koenigsegg, etc? They are todays Supercars (just like the 928 was yesterdays) and they also have plenty of issues with all these little things. I bet you would not compare ANY of them to a new Acura...
10-11-2009, 10:23 PM
#45
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As I already stated that I AM WILLING to take up the financial and time commitment for the ownership of 928 and that's why I bought one finally. I don't need to find another one since the one I have is among the best 928s I have seen and it took me 12 years to find. 928 has its flaws and I am willing to accept them. Thank you!
Steve
Steve