Thoughts on universal vs. OEM connector 02 sensor [and Sharktuning/troubleshooting]
09-09-2009, 12:23 PM
#46
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Tony: I have had oddball problems when I did not disable O2 adaptation while tuning manually. Parts of the map can end up fighting each other due to O2 adaptation changing over the various tuning sessions. So, it seems to me it should be routine to disable the adaptation for all tuning, not just autotune (where it is automatically disabled). Also, recently I had problems with injector sizing adjustments above a certain point. I have 30 lb'ers. While trying to get rid of some richness, I started to increment to injector size. Everything was fine until I got to 31.6 at which point the car went super lean and died, whereas at 31.4 it was still rich.
Anyway, turn off O2 adaptation. You will have to retune parts of the map but it eliminates a variable.
Brian, you might try that too. I've been driving for weeks with it off and my tuning now makes more sense. For a while apparently I had the idle inadvertently tuned too lean and the O2 adaptation compensated for that error but in the process, since this correction gets applied to whole map, it made WOT too rich. Every time I reset the O2 adaptation the car would not start easily and when it did, it was way lean until the adaptation took place. So, I redid the tune with O2 adaptation off and just left it off. Your problem sounds more severe than that, but I think disabling O2 adaptation completely during tuning will simplify things.
Anyway, turn off O2 adaptation. You will have to retune parts of the map but it eliminates a variable.
Brian, you might try that too. I've been driving for weeks with it off and my tuning now makes more sense. For a while apparently I had the idle inadvertently tuned too lean and the O2 adaptation compensated for that error but in the process, since this correction gets applied to whole map, it made WOT too rich. Every time I reset the O2 adaptation the car would not start easily and when it did, it was way lean until the adaptation took place. So, I redid the tune with O2 adaptation off and just left it off. Your problem sounds more severe than that, but I think disabling O2 adaptation completely during tuning will simplify things.
Turns out I could have a bad LH..actually 2 of them. . I have 2 LH units and i now think BOTH are bad for different reasons. My original unit gave me "no start when hot" issues, an interemittent "cutout" at speed and a slight surging during all types of accleration.
When swapped out the second unit(used) has cured all that but wont idle when warm...runs EXTREMLEY rich at idle, 02 sesnor is at +20% , fuelig map at -128..etc etc and wont sustain idle as you slow to a stop light for example. My car is an AUTO and this spare used unit is from a 5sp...but they have identical part numbers and i use PEMS..so that really doesnt matter.
each issue i have with the car running is cured when the LH's are swapped...then the other issues relative to the swapped LH pop up.
Just thought I'd add.
09-09-2009, 12:31 PM
#47
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
i suppose to add on here and follow up to my own issues.
Turns out I could have a bad LH..actually 2 of them. . I have 2 LH units and i now think BOTH are bad for different reasons. My original unit gave me "no start when hot" issues, an interemittent "cutout" at speed and a slight surging during all types of accleration.
When swapped out the second unit(used) has cured all that but wont idle when warm...runs EXTREMLEY rich at idle, 02 sesnor is at +20% , fuelig map at -128..etc etc and wont sustain idle as you slow to a stop light for example. My car is an AUTO and this spare used unit is from a 5sp...but they have identical part numbers and i use PEMS..so that really doesnt matter.
each issue i have with the car running is cured when the LH's are swapped...then the other issues relative to the swapped LH pop up.
Just thought I'd add.
Turns out I could have a bad LH..actually 2 of them. . I have 2 LH units and i now think BOTH are bad for different reasons. My original unit gave me "no start when hot" issues, an interemittent "cutout" at speed and a slight surging during all types of accleration.
When swapped out the second unit(used) has cured all that but wont idle when warm...runs EXTREMLEY rich at idle, 02 sesnor is at +20% , fuelig map at -128..etc etc and wont sustain idle as you slow to a stop light for example. My car is an AUTO and this spare used unit is from a 5sp...but they have identical part numbers and i use PEMS..so that really doesnt matter.
each issue i have with the car running is cured when the LH's are swapped...then the other issues relative to the swapped LH pop up.
Just thought I'd add.
Too bad you can't just average the two...
As much as the stock maps, S3 FPR, BEGI RRFPR and 30lb(?) injectors have been malaigned for being imprecise and error prone, it sure worked well for me, with pretty much zero effort, from the get-go.
Changing over to 42lb and getting everything properly tuned has turned out to be more effort than I originally expected (what else is new), mostly because there are so many different variables to isolate.
09-09-2009, 02:36 PM
#48
Supercharged
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Note to self... add content to this thread after I get my WBO2 working correctly. I think I have a similar issue when exiting the STer and allowing the LH to use the O2 Adaptation - but cannot be sure.
09-09-2009, 03:53 PM
#49
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i suppose to add on here and follow up to my own issues.
Turns out I could have a bad LH..actually 2 of them. . I have 2 LH units and i now think BOTH are bad for different reasons. My original unit gave me "no start when hot" issues, an interemittent "cutout" at speed and a slight surging during all types of accleration.
When swapped out the second unit(used) has cured all that but wont idle when warm...runs EXTREMLEY rich at idle, 02 sesnor is at +20% , fuelig map at -128..etc etc and wont sustain idle as you slow to a stop light for example. My car is an AUTO and this spare used unit is from a 5sp...but they have identical part numbers and i use PEMS..so that really doesnt matter.
each issue i have with the car running is cured when the LH's are swapped...then the other issues relative to the swapped LH pop up.
Just thought I'd add.
Turns out I could have a bad LH..actually 2 of them. . I have 2 LH units and i now think BOTH are bad for different reasons. My original unit gave me "no start when hot" issues, an interemittent "cutout" at speed and a slight surging during all types of accleration.
When swapped out the second unit(used) has cured all that but wont idle when warm...runs EXTREMLEY rich at idle, 02 sesnor is at +20% , fuelig map at -128..etc etc and wont sustain idle as you slow to a stop light for example. My car is an AUTO and this spare used unit is from a 5sp...but they have identical part numbers and i use PEMS..so that really doesnt matter.
each issue i have with the car running is cured when the LH's are swapped...then the other issues relative to the swapped LH pop up.
Just thought I'd add.
I assume you are trying to run them in the normal closed-loop mode (i.e. NBO2 sensor connected)? What happens if you go completely open-loop: Force no-cat in the ST and select the no-cat map (or disconnect NBO2 signal wire, that lets you stick with the cat-map), then disable O2-adaptation and then click the "reset" button to clear the table. Then auto-tune or manually fiddle the base fuel map around idle for a reasonable indicated AFR from the WBO2. Does that give you any resemblance of rational behavior?
If it behaves ok open-loop (after some map tweaking) then go back to closed-loop (be sure to copy your tweaked map back to the cat base-map if you had forced no-cat), but as mentioned leave o2-adaptation disabled. Does it then start having problems idling? If so that would indicate a problem with the NBO2 sensor, or the NBO2-circuits in the LH.
If the map is correct then you should see "o2-adjust" bouncing around within a few percent of zero as the LH "hunts" for stoich AFR from the NBO2.
Cheers,
09-13-2009, 05:34 PM
#51
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Okay, I switched the NB and WB in the x bungs and it made a difference. So the passenger side is running rich and or misfiring.
I can get the car to idle in the right range, and autotuned the map pretty well. So now I know it can be done, relatively easily, but I also know one half of the engine isn't running right.
I'm going to go out and change the spark plugs to see if I can figure out which hole is rich.
I did buy new injectors, so I figure one isn't right, or they're not flowing evenly.
Is there a place in San Diego or SoCal where I can have these balanced/flow matched?
I can get the car to idle in the right range, and autotuned the map pretty well. So now I know it can be done, relatively easily, but I also know one half of the engine isn't running right.
I'm going to go out and change the spark plugs to see if I can figure out which hole is rich.
I did buy new injectors, so I figure one isn't right, or they're not flowing evenly.
Is there a place in San Diego or SoCal where I can have these balanced/flow matched?
09-13-2009, 09:35 PM
#52
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Found at least part of the problem. One of my spark plugs was gapped incorrectly. That is to say, the prong was bent and touching the electrode. Wasn't me who did the plug install, but the mechanic/shop can remain nameless. I'll try to post a picture later. I'm sure all the misfires were causing the passenger side bank to read rich, and certainly weren't helping performance any, either.
My laptop battery died while I was sharktuning/dataloging and getting ready to use the shark plotter. The car runs great in open loop but not so great in closed loop. I've still got the NB sensor in the passenger side bank of the X, and the WB on the driver's side. So I'm still thinking there may be some difference between the two sides.
If I can get some good shark-plotted runs tonight, I'll try to fine tune the maps and then switch the NB back over to the driver's side.
I'll probably still send the injectors out to be flow matched.
All in all, I'm very excited. I feel like there IS light at the end of the tunnel, and it's NOT an oncoming train.
My laptop battery died while I was sharktuning/dataloging and getting ready to use the shark plotter. The car runs great in open loop but not so great in closed loop. I've still got the NB sensor in the passenger side bank of the X, and the WB on the driver's side. So I'm still thinking there may be some difference between the two sides.
If I can get some good shark-plotted runs tonight, I'll try to fine tune the maps and then switch the NB back over to the driver's side.
I'll probably still send the injectors out to be flow matched.
All in all, I'm very excited. I feel like there IS light at the end of the tunnel, and it's NOT an oncoming train.
09-14-2009, 01:41 AM
#53
Rennlist Member
SO if it runs OK open-loop (i.e. without nbo2 or with ST's "force no-cat" mode) then swap the wbo2 from side to side-- do the banks still read different at idle?
The advantage of running open-loop for this sort of testing is that the LH is not trying to adjust with the fueling while you are trying to diagnose things-- one less variable to worry about.
