for my good friend -----
07-13-2009, 05:14 AM
#17
Nordschleife Master
I would say obviously that an ideal engine temp is found and then the minimum of rad cores are created along with the smallest capacity of water that would be required keep the engine at that temp with some said amount of airflow going over the cores. These cars are absolutely maximized and at the razors edge. In this case managing even the weight of the engine coolant and getting it down to its lowest level possible to save weight.
F1 engines typically have a coolant or water capacity near 2 gallons. (although that may have gone up slightly with the current regs that require 2-3 race weekends per engine) what does water weigh per gallon? 7lbs? The weight saved there can later be added back in ballast wherever engineers feel it best suits the car or driver or track.
Those cars on on such small margins, its incredible they are as reliable as they are.
07-13-2009, 06:02 AM
#18
Nordschleife Master
NPG is the name of the fancy coolant.
Specific heat is how much heat each lb of water or coolant holds. Run so many lbs per min through the motor, with a temperature rise of so many degrees, run that through the radiator for a drop of so many degrees, and that tells you how many BTU's of heat are transported.
Our cooling systems have flow rated in gallons, not pounds, so a conversion is needed to compare. (sorry too late at night for me to figure out what that means).
............ water 50/50 NGP NGP+
spec grav 1.00 1.066 1.038 1.091
lbs/gal 8.32 8.87 8.64 9.08
*********************
Messing with the operating temp is a tuner "trick". Maybe it means something in drag racing. On early efi cars it makes the mixture rich, which may or may not make more HP depending on if the factory setting was lean.
Practical point is that operating temperature is VERY emissions sensitive, too high and nox goes out the roof.
Specific heat is how much heat each lb of water or coolant holds. Run so many lbs per min through the motor, with a temperature rise of so many degrees, run that through the radiator for a drop of so many degrees, and that tells you how many BTU's of heat are transported.
Our cooling systems have flow rated in gallons, not pounds, so a conversion is needed to compare. (sorry too late at night for me to figure out what that means).
............ water 50/50 NGP NGP+
spec grav 1.00 1.066 1.038 1.091
lbs/gal 8.32 8.87 8.64 9.08
*********************
Messing with the operating temp is a tuner "trick". Maybe it means something in drag racing. On early efi cars it makes the mixture rich, which may or may not make more HP depending on if the factory setting was lean.
Practical point is that operating temperature is VERY emissions sensitive, too high and nox goes out the roof.
07-13-2009, 06:09 AM
#19
Three Wheelin'
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there are numerous reasons to run cooler thermostats for a number of reasons.
Introducing power mods like timing, boost (more boost), and more will introduce a hotter cylinder temp and such therefore you want to make sure you offset this. Sometimes lower thermostats are used in hotter climates to give the engine a little head start and most of the time a lower thermostat is used to lower the threshold of overheating. In the 944, the temp range is normal in different driving conditions between the 2 marks, so in warmer months using some boost and then coming to a stop light persay you stay at the upper part of the line and then the fans will kick in or something. By lowering the thermostat and the fan kick on sensor it should then never pass the midway mark. It gives you time to look that direction and have more time to know that something is wrong if it climbs above that mark...etc, now Im not saying it is possible that many people do it because they think their car will get more power.
A hotter motor will not produce more power, a motor warmed up to its optimum temperature will produce more power. In a built up F1 car they are building a car around values such as engine coolant temp and do whatever to run it at that exactly. Other people in hot deserts look for solutions to not overheat with A/C at idle in certain cars that have problems like that.
On the topic of this coolant stuff, there was some threads on this in the 944 forum and I guess a few people are using it. I guess the big thing to remember is to make sure you have NO WATER in the system, im sure you could find something by searching if you are interested in using it.
Introducing power mods like timing, boost (more boost), and more will introduce a hotter cylinder temp and such therefore you want to make sure you offset this. Sometimes lower thermostats are used in hotter climates to give the engine a little head start and most of the time a lower thermostat is used to lower the threshold of overheating. In the 944, the temp range is normal in different driving conditions between the 2 marks, so in warmer months using some boost and then coming to a stop light persay you stay at the upper part of the line and then the fans will kick in or something. By lowering the thermostat and the fan kick on sensor it should then never pass the midway mark. It gives you time to look that direction and have more time to know that something is wrong if it climbs above that mark...etc, now Im not saying it is possible that many people do it because they think their car will get more power.
A hotter motor will not produce more power, a motor warmed up to its optimum temperature will produce more power. In a built up F1 car they are building a car around values such as engine coolant temp and do whatever to run it at that exactly. Other people in hot deserts look for solutions to not overheat with A/C at idle in certain cars that have problems like that.
On the topic of this coolant stuff, there was some threads on this in the 944 forum and I guess a few people are using it. I guess the big thing to remember is to make sure you have NO WATER in the system, im sure you could find something by searching if you are interested in using it.
07-13-2009, 06:46 AM
#20
By Ryan Perrella
Ryan your statement details more about weight, whereas I was talking more of drag and aero efficiency which should be more important than a couple of kgs, of weight placement. The water and the cores are two factors in the ability to cool, another is the water pressure. The coolers on any car don't add to performance but are just essential, the F1 engines also run very high water pressures which is very helpful in keeping that smaller amount of water in the operating range. I believe that the engine will be more efficient in terms of BSFC with a higher engine temp.
To further make this point, their is three teams using the Mercedes engine, one is basically at the back of the pack and one was basically at the front, I think if you made adjustments for fuel loads, you and the beginning of the year could have filled the Brawn to the brim and had the Force India on empty tanks and it still would have been faster, we know Sutil isn't a bad driver, tyres are the same, the major difference is the aerodynamics, that drag through the radiators is massive, on a road car it is around 35%, I don't what it is on an F1 but it is a big factor.
You may already know the is fact the some of the losses that were clawed back when the change to V8s was made came not only through lesser weight (in the cooling system) or placement but mainly better aero shaped around the engine, (and greater engine driveability) "The coke bottle shape" the radiators are smaller but not representitive of the drop in engine capacity.
Greg
Not really
I would say obviously that an ideal engine temp is found and then the minimum of rad cores are created along with the smallest capacity of water that would be required keep the engine at that temp with some said amount of airflow going over the cores. These cars are absolutely maximized and at the razors edge. In this case managing even the weight of the engine coolant and getting it down to its lowest level possible to save weight.
I would say obviously that an ideal engine temp is found and then the minimum of rad cores are created along with the smallest capacity of water that would be required keep the engine at that temp with some said amount of airflow going over the cores. These cars are absolutely maximized and at the razors edge. In this case managing even the weight of the engine coolant and getting it down to its lowest level possible to save weight.
To further make this point, their is three teams using the Mercedes engine, one is basically at the back of the pack and one was basically at the front, I think if you made adjustments for fuel loads, you and the beginning of the year could have filled the Brawn to the brim and had the Force India on empty tanks and it still would have been faster, we know Sutil isn't a bad driver, tyres are the same, the major difference is the aerodynamics, that drag through the radiators is massive, on a road car it is around 35%, I don't what it is on an F1 but it is a big factor.
You may already know the is fact the some of the losses that were clawed back when the change to V8s was made came not only through lesser weight (in the cooling system) or placement but mainly better aero shaped around the engine, (and greater engine driveability) "The coke bottle shape" the radiators are smaller but not representitive of the drop in engine capacity.
Greg
07-13-2009, 12:02 PM
#22
Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Rennlist Member
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My comments were based upon the second part of Iceman's quote:
My interpretation of this was for any given engine in any state of tune, a cooler engine will always make more power than a hotter one. Which does not coincide with what I know. Each engine has its own optimal operating temperature. It may flucuate with some mods but generally, one plays with thermostats and cooling capacities to maintain that optimal operating temperature when performance mods have been applied (turbos, ignition adjustments, plugs, compression, etc.). I have found in most cases with the many cars I have owned and tinkered with, a too cool running engine results in less hp, more emmisions and less fuel efficiency. A too hot engine results in the same and incites many nasty component failure scenarios.
So my thinking on the OP is the same. There was a too rich condition prior to the work performed on the car. Once corrected the engine began running in a more optimal, more lean, condition resulting in slighly higher operating temp and near 10% improvement in mpg. I'd be happy with that outcome once I determined the engine was not pinging.
This is a case where a baseline exhaust gas anayzer of before and after could really tell what is happening.
.... but a cooler engine will always make more power than a hotter one....????
So my thinking on the OP is the same. There was a too rich condition prior to the work performed on the car. Once corrected the engine began running in a more optimal, more lean, condition resulting in slighly higher operating temp and near 10% improvement in mpg. I'd be happy with that outcome once I determined the engine was not pinging.
This is a case where a baseline exhaust gas anayzer of before and after could really tell what is happening.
07-13-2009, 01:42 PM
#24
Drifting
A hotter engine will always make more power given that control is optimized. People run colder thermostats in older cars because the controller never fully exits the cold start enrichment. It's a hack to get more fuel into the engine. If you can access all the fuel and spark tables there is no reason to do this.
07-13-2009, 01:43 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
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Ryan---
the inclusion of your name was with respect to you always giving me a deal about "what does anything in the trucking industry have to do with a Porsche 928 (?)" sorry about the spelling.....I would change it if I could.
I thought it would get your attention, that yes there are other things in the universe that intersect with things 928, and that you actually might enjoy the info. I thought we were past the petty stuff.....?
just think if we could eliminate only 50% of the blown headgaskets or water pump failures or improve the cooling of our precious engines.....that's a great achievement.
no offense intended------have a little fun with it!
--Russ
the inclusion of your name was with respect to you always giving me a deal about "what does anything in the trucking industry have to do with a Porsche 928 (?)" sorry about the spelling.....I would change it if I could.
I thought it would get your attention, that yes there are other things in the universe that intersect with things 928, and that you actually might enjoy the info. I thought we were past the petty stuff.....?
just think if we could eliminate only 50% of the blown headgaskets or water pump failures or improve the cooling of our precious engines.....that's a great achievement.
no offense intended------have a little fun with it!
--Russ
07-13-2009, 03:47 PM
#26
Nordschleife Master
By Ryan Perrella
Ryan your statement details more about weight, whereas I was talking more of drag and aero efficiency which should be more important than a couple of kgs, of weight placement. The water and the cores are two factors in the ability to cool, another is the water pressure. The coolers on any car don't add to performance but are just essential, the F1 engines also run very high water pressures which is very helpful in keeping that smaller amount of water in the operating range. I believe that the engine will be more efficient in terms of BSFC with a higher engine temp.
To further make this point, their is three teams using the Mercedes engine, one is basically at the back of the pack and one was basically at the front, I think if you made adjustments for fuel loads, you and the beginning of the year could have filled the Brawn to the brim and had the Force India on empty tanks and it still would have been faster, we know Sutil isn't a bad driver, tyres are the same, the major difference is the aerodynamics, that drag through the radiators is massive, on a road car it is around 35%, I don't what it is on an F1 but it is a big factor.
You may already know the is fact the some of the losses that were clawed back when the change to V8s was made came not only through lesser weight (in the cooling system) or placement but mainly better aero shaped around the engine, (and greater engine driveability) "The coke bottle shape" the radiators are smaller but not representitive of the drop in engine capacity.
Greg
Ryan your statement details more about weight, whereas I was talking more of drag and aero efficiency which should be more important than a couple of kgs, of weight placement. The water and the cores are two factors in the ability to cool, another is the water pressure. The coolers on any car don't add to performance but are just essential, the F1 engines also run very high water pressures which is very helpful in keeping that smaller amount of water in the operating range. I believe that the engine will be more efficient in terms of BSFC with a higher engine temp.
To further make this point, their is three teams using the Mercedes engine, one is basically at the back of the pack and one was basically at the front, I think if you made adjustments for fuel loads, you and the beginning of the year could have filled the Brawn to the brim and had the Force India on empty tanks and it still would have been faster, we know Sutil isn't a bad driver, tyres are the same, the major difference is the aerodynamics, that drag through the radiators is massive, on a road car it is around 35%, I don't what it is on an F1 but it is a big factor.
You may already know the is fact the some of the losses that were clawed back when the change to V8s was made came not only through lesser weight (in the cooling system) or placement but mainly better aero shaped around the engine, (and greater engine driveability) "The coke bottle shape" the radiators are smaller but not representitive of the drop in engine capacity.
Greg
Engine cooling requirements are fairly easy to calculate, the engineers working on the engine would have that which they then would tell the aero guys about. At that point aero takes over, the cars spend probably 90% of their development budget on aero, so yeah the aero is obviously huge, but the needs of the engine dont change so much that entire aero packages are redesigned so i dont get why the statement about engine cooling and aero had any real validity. But yes obviously aero is a huge difference as to the lap times between Brawn and McLaren and Force. But relating to engines, the aero package that Brawn has doesnt make their Benz engine anymore powerful then does Force, they are the same.
Intake openings can change mildly from weekend to weekend, from say Shanghai to England where weather is obviously different. To be honest the requirements of the cooling system in these cars hasnt changed much from year to year, its pretty much standard just due to requirements of the engine not really changing much .
Ryan---
the inclusion of your name was with respect to you always giving me a deal about "what does anything in the trucking industry have to do with a Porsche 928 (?)" sorry about the spelling.....I would change it if I could.
I thought it would get your attention, that yes there are other things in the universe that intersect with things 928, and that you actually might enjoy the info. I thought we were past the petty stuff.....?
just think if we could eliminate only 50% of the blown headgaskets or water pump failures or improve the cooling of our precious engines.....that's a great achievement.
no offense intended------have a little fun with it!
--Russ
the inclusion of your name was with respect to you always giving me a deal about "what does anything in the trucking industry have to do with a Porsche 928 (?)" sorry about the spelling.....I would change it if I could.
I thought it would get your attention, that yes there are other things in the universe that intersect with things 928, and that you actually might enjoy the info. I thought we were past the petty stuff.....?
just think if we could eliminate only 50% of the blown headgaskets or water pump failures or improve the cooling of our precious engines.....that's a great achievement.
no offense intended------have a little fun with it!
--Russ
Again i ask you, PLEASE REMOVE IT
Its very simple, if you dont know, edit your thread and to to "go advanced" and that should allow you to change the topic headline. Its very simple, it can be done on new threads but older threads the feature becomes locked.
PLEASE AGAIN, DO NOT USE MY NAME
as a trucker from texas, i would hope you could find a way to just "get er done" whatever it takes, just remove my name from this thread and do not in the future do this again. We have gone over this far to many times i dont want to keep rehashing this.
Thank you Russ, I trust that the next time i log onto Rennlist this will have been rectified.
07-13-2009, 09:53 PM
#28
By Ryan Perella
Ryan you are missing at least one of my main points, which was the various engines run at different temperatures as such giving the various teams a different starting point in regard to their aero. If my memory was correct the Ferrari engine couldn't be run as hot as the Renault and or Mercedes. That is why I said it was mainly an aero thing.
Greg
Intake openings can change mildly from weekend to weekend, from say Shanghai to England where weather is obviously different. To be honest the requirements of the cooling system in these cars hasnt changed much from year to year, its pretty much standard just due to requirements of the engine not really changing much .
Greg
07-14-2009, 04:26 AM
#29
Three Wheelin'
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