Cost of S4 engine rebuild?
07-11-2009, 04:08 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
I think porsche rod bearing sets are a little over $400, the OEM ones are like 140$ a set.
Is it really true that one can't get rod bearings for less than a grand?
I did a lot of research and it took some time, but I got forged 4340 H-beam rods, custom designed forged 4032 pistons, NPR gas-nitrided steel rings, and pins and locks for USD 2,500. It's going to be a bummer if I now have to pay USD 1,000 for the rod bearings. :-(
It's going to be especially insulting to my sensibilities to pay USD 1,000 for them since the rod bearing materials and construction really are substandard compared to what you can buy for a small fraction of the price for say mod Fords.
In fact, a couple of months ago I asked around for how much would it cost to make tri-metal copper bearings with the modern surface coatings. The answer is $30k for tooling but not much per set after that. I passed. ;-)
I did a lot of research and it took some time, but I got forged 4340 H-beam rods, custom designed forged 4032 pistons, NPR gas-nitrided steel rings, and pins and locks for USD 2,500. It's going to be a bummer if I now have to pay USD 1,000 for the rod bearings. :-(
It's going to be especially insulting to my sensibilities to pay USD 1,000 for them since the rod bearing materials and construction really are substandard compared to what you can buy for a small fraction of the price for say mod Fords.
In fact, a couple of months ago I asked around for how much would it cost to make tri-metal copper bearings with the modern surface coatings. The answer is $30k for tooling but not much per set after that. I passed. ;-)
07-11-2009, 04:14 PM
#17
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In some slight chance that you got the right size bearings the first time, and they are not returnable and they are 30 per half.
By the time you buy enough to get a set that fits from Porsche, you will have more than a grand in them
Many here have had good luck with the Glyco's, they are far cheaper, but they are about .001 tighter than the factory ones.
I have to admit, the Glyco's is what I used in mine, just because I did not know how many I would have to buy to get a set that worked.
If I could have returned any that were the wrong size I would have put the factory ones in mine.
Tight is not good on a hi-Po 928.
EDIT: I was wrong, they are right at 30 each, if you look up the price online and see them marked down, call and see how many you can get at the low price, like I did.
By the time you buy enough to get a set that fits from Porsche, you will have more than a grand in them
Many here have had good luck with the Glyco's, they are far cheaper, but they are about .001 tighter than the factory ones.
I have to admit, the Glyco's is what I used in mine, just because I did not know how many I would have to buy to get a set that worked.
If I could have returned any that were the wrong size I would have put the factory ones in mine.
Tight is not good on a hi-Po 928.
EDIT: I was wrong, they are right at 30 each, if you look up the price online and see them marked down, call and see how many you can get at the low price, like I did.
Is it really true that one can't get rod bearings for less than a grand?
I did a lot of research and it took some time, but I got forged 4340 H-beam rods, custom designed forged 4032 pistons, NPR gas-nitrided steel rings, and pins and locks for USD 2,500. It's going to be a bummer if I now have to pay USD 1,000 for the rod bearings. :-(
It's going to be especially insulting to my sensibilities to pay USD 1,000 for them since the rod bearing materials and construction really are substandard compared to what you can buy for a small fraction of the price for say mod Fords.
In fact, a couple of months ago I asked around for how much would it cost to make tri-metal copper bearings with the modern surface coatings. The answer is $30k for tooling but not much per set after that. I passed. ;-)
I did a lot of research and it took some time, but I got forged 4340 H-beam rods, custom designed forged 4032 pistons, NPR gas-nitrided steel rings, and pins and locks for USD 2,500. It's going to be a bummer if I now have to pay USD 1,000 for the rod bearings. :-(
It's going to be especially insulting to my sensibilities to pay USD 1,000 for them since the rod bearing materials and construction really are substandard compared to what you can buy for a small fraction of the price for say mod Fords.
In fact, a couple of months ago I asked around for how much would it cost to make tri-metal copper bearings with the modern surface coatings. The answer is $30k for tooling but not much per set after that. I passed. ;-)
07-11-2009, 04:20 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
In some slight chance that you got the right size bearings the first time, and they are not returnable and they are 56 per half.
By the time you buy enough to get a set that fits from Porsche, you will have more than a grand in them
Many here have had good luck with the Glyco's, they are far cheaper, but they are about .001 tighter than the factory ones.
I have to admit, the Glyco's is what I used in mine, just because I did not know how many I would have to buy to get a set that worked.
If I could have returned any that were the wrong size I would have put the factory ones in mine.
Tight is not good on a hi-Po 928.
By the time you buy enough to get a set that fits from Porsche, you will have more than a grand in them
Many here have had good luck with the Glyco's, they are far cheaper, but they are about .001 tighter than the factory ones.
I have to admit, the Glyco's is what I used in mine, just because I did not know how many I would have to buy to get a set that worked.
If I could have returned any that were the wrong size I would have put the factory ones in mine.
Tight is not good on a hi-Po 928.
07-11-2009, 04:26 PM
#20
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He is right about the porsche rod bearings, I totally forgot about the correct clearances. if they are not the correct size then you have to buy a new set, so by the time you find the correct clearance you may well be close to 1000 $ in rod bearings. I got OEMs, but I have not measured them yet.
07-11-2009, 05:41 PM
#21
Tuomo, have you investigated having the bearings nitrided? Maybe this will harden them up? Or even just getting them coated. I don't know but just having a guess.
Greg
I agree with what you said in regard to Factory parts, my best example is rack boots, the Porsche's were replaced once in 25 years, my generic boots on a domestic car were getting replaced every year! Now they have changed the formulation and they come with a two year warranty. Guess I will be changing them every three now.
Greg
Greg
I agree with what you said in regard to Factory parts, my best example is rack boots, the Porsche's were replaced once in 25 years, my generic boots on a domestic car were getting replaced every year! Now they have changed the formulation and they come with a two year warranty. Guess I will be changing them every three now.
Greg
07-11-2009, 07:28 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
Seems to me these motors rarely wear out, so rebuilding will depend on the level of mess up from owner abuse. One of my motors was pretty decent once apart, so I haven't decided on new rings, or bearings.
07-11-2009, 08:36 PM
#23
Nordschleife Master
Factory parts are expensive, but not as expensive as cheap parts in the long run.
I will pull my invoices and see if I do not recall right.
as far as the water pump, did we just not have a thread on Porsche raising the price to 1200 for a new pump?
I will never put anything but a new Porsche WP on mine again.
If I did get ripped off, at least I know I got 100% real factory parts, and to me that is worth something as far as peace of mind goes, for the most part.
I will pull my invoices and see if I do not recall right.
as far as the water pump, did we just not have a thread on Porsche raising the price to 1200 for a new pump?
I will never put anything but a new Porsche WP on mine again.
If I did get ripped off, at least I know I got 100% real factory parts, and to me that is worth something as far as peace of mind goes, for the most part.
If you paid $1000 for all those oil control rubber lines under the intake, i have a bridge i would like to sell you.
Seriously, i think its time you shop around, i would be pissed if someone charged me that much, actually i wouldn't, i would just look elsewhere.
07-11-2009, 08:40 PM
#24
Nordschleife Master
also if i recall the Porsche OE Rod bearings are allot more expensive then the main bearing sets which is a modest $250. Which is great because main bearings are supplied ONLY by porsche, there is no OEM Glyco alternative for mains. The OEM rod bearings are much cheaper then what porsche charges, same with rings.
I spent about $2200 on the GT engine i rebuilt and i used all Porsche parts.
Its actually such a rewarding job, and relatively inexpensive that regardless of mileage on any GTS i buy in the future, the engine is coming out and being refreshed. It allows me to reseal everything and make some updates as well.
Rebuilding a 93 GTS engine with updated rods and so on gets to be quite a bit more expensive then an S4 rebuild. But once you have that new lump, you wont need to work on it for a long time which is very nice.
I spent about $2200 on the GT engine i rebuilt and i used all Porsche parts.
Its actually such a rewarding job, and relatively inexpensive that regardless of mileage on any GTS i buy in the future, the engine is coming out and being refreshed. It allows me to reseal everything and make some updates as well.
Rebuilding a 93 GTS engine with updated rods and so on gets to be quite a bit more expensive then an S4 rebuild. But once you have that new lump, you wont need to work on it for a long time which is very nice.
07-11-2009, 08:49 PM
#25
Nordschleife Master
It's my understanding that the crank journal has to be hard and the bearing soft, relatively speaking. The bearing is basically a consumable, and the journal is supposed to last forever.
Also, if there are particles in the oil, then the bearing has to be soft enough to absorb those particles deep enough in the material such that they don't damage the crank.
Gas nitriding or DLC coating of the journal (i.e., the crank) makes sense. Dry film lubricant coating makes sense on the bearing. Here's one place to get your bearings coated: http://www.swaintech.com/store.asp?pid=10966 This is not going to break a bank, I think the they charge $8 per bearing or less with larger quantities.
07-11-2009, 09:01 PM
#26
Nordschleife Master
The Australians have cheap forged 4340 steel H-beam 928 rods in stock in case you ever need to update a '93 GTS. They are lighter, stronger, and cheaper than the revised GTS rods.
07-11-2009, 09:12 PM
#27
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The prices Rob is quoting, is coming FROM PORSCHE, where all the parts come in Porsche bag, not OEM parts, but factory OE parts. Yes they are very very reasonable.
If you paid $1000 for all those oil control rubber lines under the intake, i have a bridge i would like to sell you.
Seriously, i think its time you shop around, i would be pissed if someone charged me that much, actually i wouldn't, i would just look elsewhere.
If you paid $1000 for all those oil control rubber lines under the intake, i have a bridge i would like to sell you.
Seriously, i think its time you shop around, i would be pissed if someone charged me that much, actually i wouldn't, i would just look elsewhere.
I called my local Porsche dealer (who I get 20% off list with) and got prices on every thing before I ordered all the parts for mine, I did every thing but the ISC and I know wish it was new also.
I think a lot of the difference is that I am going to replace everything, some folks wont.
If I build a engine, there will be very few old parts in it, and the ones that I do reuse will have been reworked in some fashion.
To each there own, but I know what it cost me, and I did look around at least three places.
07-11-2009, 09:17 PM
#28
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So what did you replace in your "Rebuilt" engine that you could do it for $2200?
Honestly, I find that hard to believe that a lot was done to your motor for that little amount of money using only Porsche parts.
One of my BBC rebuilds is way more than that.
07-11-2009, 11:01 PM
#29
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I can get parts cheaper than all but a few here, and that is the price I am talking about.
To do a intake refresh is going to be close to a grand in parts, for me or for a customer.
Go to 928 SP and add up all the rubber bits for a intake refresh and a couple of knock sensors, gonna be a lot more than the 250 some one said.
You ever seen a 20 year old S4 that did not need knock sensors and every hose there?
Most are going to need a TPS also.
I rebuilt mine for three reasons.
I was not happy with the leak down.
I was not happy with the crank end play
I wanted to know why it had low oil pressure and some lifters ticking.
I really did not do it because of how long a chevy lasts.
I work on European cars, not chevys other than my Corvette
To do a intake refresh is going to be close to a grand in parts, for me or for a customer.
Go to 928 SP and add up all the rubber bits for a intake refresh and a couple of knock sensors, gonna be a lot more than the 250 some one said.
You ever seen a 20 year old S4 that did not need knock sensors and every hose there?
Most are going to need a TPS also.
I rebuilt mine for three reasons.
I was not happy with the leak down.
I was not happy with the crank end play
I wanted to know why it had low oil pressure and some lifters ticking.
I really did not do it because of how long a chevy lasts.
I work on European cars, not chevys other than my Corvette
Greg,
I think that most are looking at the cost to DIY... Where you are looking to do for a customer... totally different markets IMHO..... Main Bearings and Rod Bearings are not places to cut corners... VW lifters that are lighter and half the cost are a good deal IMHO....
I think that the challenge is this:
With the technology and materials used on a 928 engine... Has anyone see rings that were shot? There are cars out there with 400K on them and they don't burn oil.... I think that most people want to "refresh" a 928 engine based on their expereinces with other engines.... As far as 928 engines go, if it runs well, and dyno's what it's supposed to, I'm not going to crack it open for a rebuild even if it has 800K on it.... If its an auto, and you are worried about TBF then replace the main bearings, and check the rod bearings.... don't mess with rings if you don't have to.... just my .928's worth
I think that most are looking at the cost to DIY... Where you are looking to do for a customer... totally different markets IMHO..... Main Bearings and Rod Bearings are not places to cut corners... VW lifters that are lighter and half the cost are a good deal IMHO....
I think that the challenge is this:
With the technology and materials used on a 928 engine... Has anyone see rings that were shot? There are cars out there with 400K on them and they don't burn oil.... I think that most people want to "refresh" a 928 engine based on their expereinces with other engines.... As far as 928 engines go, if it runs well, and dyno's what it's supposed to, I'm not going to crack it open for a rebuild even if it has 800K on it.... If its an auto, and you are worried about TBF then replace the main bearings, and check the rod bearings.... don't mess with rings if you don't have to.... just my .928's worth
07-11-2009, 11:01 PM
#30
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I just reviewed a parts list from two years ago what was for what I call "the full monty" engine reseal. Note that this doesn't touch the long block. This is just a full WP/TB (with rebuilt WP), intake, cam covers, water bridge, oil neck and associated bits and pieces. The price at the time was $1900 in parts. Powder-coating was extra. Injector replacement or refurbish is extra. Heck, that doesn't even include a new air filter.
I have noted for decades (and collected real data in support) that folks that do not keep meticulous track of their time and expense - and aren't accountable for either - usually grossly under-estimate both. This is true for folks that "estimate" wrenching work just like it is true for folks that write software.
I have noted for decades (and collected real data in support) that folks that do not keep meticulous track of their time and expense - and aren't accountable for either - usually grossly under-estimate both. This is true for folks that "estimate" wrenching work just like it is true for folks that write software.
