Nose Vents for increased cooling/downforce - Any pictures?
06-16-2009, 07:24 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thats it. Looks good to me!
Now, you need longer radiator hoses and get rid of all that sheet metal up front. certainly a good design idea
mk
Now, you need longer radiator hoses and get rid of all that sheet metal up front. certainly a good design idea
mk
06-16-2009, 07:29 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
This already happens with the fact that you cant really overspeed the electric motors. (not like turbines or piston engines on airplanes). the faster you go the faster the motor spins to a point. It basically acts like feathering the pitch of the props. Im sure there is a speed where the fan motors couldnt add any differential flow, but its going to be way up there. as it is, there is a HUGE difference at 100mph + vs 40mph with the fans running or not runnning. Ill start to over heat after the 3rd lap at laguna, but when I turn on the 2nd fan, (1st one goes on automatically via its thermoswitch), the temp goes down and I last an entire race at just above the middle temp area, even on a 95 degree day , as I did in the last Thunderhill races.
PS. Guess it doesnt count that almost all racing cars these days take advantage of the inlet air from the nose, through the radiator and venting out above the hood. But thats right, air doesnt move past 18mph through a radiator.
mk
PS. Guess it doesnt count that almost all racing cars these days take advantage of the inlet air from the nose, through the radiator and venting out above the hood. But thats right, air doesnt move past 18mph through a radiator.
mk
Last edited by mark kibort; 06-16-2009 at 08:17 PM.
06-16-2009, 08:54 PM
#34
Man of many SIGs
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
06-16-2009, 11:33 PM
#36
Pro
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Québec, Québec, Canada
Posts: 695
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
How about the following image...
The vent take from the spot where the air tube are, a bit lower grabing some of the radiator air. They come up right on top of the bar.
They basicly follow the low pressure zone in the front of a 928.
Of course, you need some alternative air piping, like supercharger, or taking air in the wing, or lower.... and maybe move the power steering tank.
The vent take from the spot where the air tube are, a bit lower grabing some of the radiator air. They come up right on top of the bar.
They basicly follow the low pressure zone in the front of a 928.
Of course, you need some alternative air piping, like supercharger, or taking air in the wing, or lower.... and maybe move the power steering tank.
06-17-2009, 04:22 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
race car vets do exactly what we are discussing. tilt forward and vent to the mid hood area. see pic I provided. the hood is the speedGT World challenge version. Oh yeah i forgot, after 18mph, no more air passes through it. 
06-17-2009, 04:24 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
why the sides? grab the middle with those vents. the sides are where the intake is and it gets high pressure air. Plus, the flow will be much better in the middle as is with most race car designs like this.
mk
mk
How about the following image...
The vent take from the spot where the air tube are, a bit lower grabing some of the radiator air. They come up right on top of the bar.
They basicly follow the low pressure zone in the front of a 928.
Of course, you need some alternative air piping, like supercharger, or taking air in the wing, or lower.... and maybe move the power steering tank.
The vent take from the spot where the air tube are, a bit lower grabing some of the radiator air. They come up right on top of the bar.
They basicly follow the low pressure zone in the front of a 928.
Of course, you need some alternative air piping, like supercharger, or taking air in the wing, or lower.... and maybe move the power steering tank.
06-17-2009, 05:17 PM
#41
Pro
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Québec, Québec, Canada
Posts: 695
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
I don't say it wouldn't be possible to design a vent in the middle... Just I think it would be a lot more complexe. I also don't say I have taken into account everything. There's many pipes I totally forgot about that are in the way.
A simple cutout vent doesn't change much in the downforce. The low pressure zone will suck air out, but nothing will apply positive pressure on the car itself. However, if you do like the above picture of a ford GT, this is like a wing integrated in the hood. It actively push the front down.
Normaly, the air tubing on the side aren't there when using a supercharger. (Depending of the piping) And I've see picture of a 928 race car with the tubing, at the reinforcing bar, going to the side to pick the air in the wing, in front of the wheels. (Which make some sense instead of picking the left over over the radiator.
06-17-2009, 05:34 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I didnt know you were refering to the supercharger set up. Then yes ,that would work
now, as far as down force, you are confusing on what causes downforce.
a cut out vent that is in the low pressure zone of the hood, fed by the front of the car will provide down force, in the same way that a splitter provides downforce. this has been proven by the vet guys back in 2001 when they visied the canada wind tunnel. what happens low pressure zone doesnt "suck "anything out. It provides a differential pressure path for the air comeing out of the radiator to go. air moves to differential pressure and where is it going to go. Ambient pressure is under the car, low pressure is on top ofthe hood. if there is a vent ,it will go that way. Air that before, wasnt vented out the hood, would end up under the car adding to the lift of the car. Splitters work the same way. the lip isnt being pushed on by the air, it is just a guide wall, if you wall, for the air to bunch up, compress and find a way around the nose ofthe car, usually to the sides. now, the downforce is due to the lack of air that normally is going under the car, being diverted to the sides of the car. Canards, winglets, dive planes work on a different principle. they are wings. Sure, the better you vent the air with ducting , the more efficient it is, but make no mistake, wings that fly, dont have to have bottoms. Just smooth tops. (like our hood. the front of our cars are like wing tops producing lift. vent the air from the radiator inlet and you spoil that lift and it all routes to the top of the hood increasing its pressure.Also, it adds to the air flow over the car and makes the rear wing more effective as well.
so, what the air entering the radiator area will do when vented to the hood is add reduce the vacuum , which in effect adds downforce
what the pro vet guys have done is , like you said. tilt the radiator way forward and use all that space for intake and downforce air. the only air that misses the radiator is that which is guided to the intake. This technique was proved to provide a great amount of downforce combinded with the small splitter.
now, as far as down force, you are confusing on what causes downforce.
a cut out vent that is in the low pressure zone of the hood, fed by the front of the car will provide down force, in the same way that a splitter provides downforce. this has been proven by the vet guys back in 2001 when they visied the canada wind tunnel. what happens low pressure zone doesnt "suck "anything out. It provides a differential pressure path for the air comeing out of the radiator to go. air moves to differential pressure and where is it going to go. Ambient pressure is under the car, low pressure is on top ofthe hood. if there is a vent ,it will go that way. Air that before, wasnt vented out the hood, would end up under the car adding to the lift of the car. Splitters work the same way. the lip isnt being pushed on by the air, it is just a guide wall, if you wall, for the air to bunch up, compress and find a way around the nose ofthe car, usually to the sides. now, the downforce is due to the lack of air that normally is going under the car, being diverted to the sides of the car. Canards, winglets, dive planes work on a different principle. they are wings. Sure, the better you vent the air with ducting , the more efficient it is, but make no mistake, wings that fly, dont have to have bottoms. Just smooth tops. (like our hood. the front of our cars are like wing tops producing lift. vent the air from the radiator inlet and you spoil that lift and it all routes to the top of the hood increasing its pressure.Also, it adds to the air flow over the car and makes the rear wing more effective as well.
so, what the air entering the radiator area will do when vented to the hood is add reduce the vacuum , which in effect adds downforce
what the pro vet guys have done is , like you said. tilt the radiator way forward and use all that space for intake and downforce air. the only air that misses the radiator is that which is guided to the intake. This technique was proved to provide a great amount of downforce combinded with the small splitter.
Can't. In the middle you bump into too much stuff... Strap, water pump, coolant piping, oil breather/separator, and supercharger if you have one and/or radiator far.
A simple cutout vent doesn't change much in the downforce. The low pressure zone will suck air out, but nothing will apply positive pressure on the car itself. However, if you do like the above picture of a ford GT, this is like a wing integrated in the hood. It actively push the front down.
Normaly, the air tubing on the side aren't there when using a supercharger. (Depending of the piping) And I've see picture of a 928 race car with the tubing, at the reinforcing bar, going to the side to pick the air in the wing, in front of the wheels. (Which make some sense instead of picking the left over over the radiator.
A simple cutout vent doesn't change much in the downforce. The low pressure zone will suck air out, but nothing will apply positive pressure on the car itself. However, if you do like the above picture of a ford GT, this is like a wing integrated in the hood. It actively push the front down.
Normaly, the air tubing on the side aren't there when using a supercharger. (Depending of the piping) And I've see picture of a 928 race car with the tubing, at the reinforcing bar, going to the side to pick the air in the wing, in front of the wheels. (Which make some sense instead of picking the left over over the radiator.
06-17-2009, 05:42 PM
#43
Pro
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Québec, Québec, Canada
Posts: 695
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
I didnt know you were refering to the supercharger set up. Then yes ,that would work
now, as far as down force, you are confusing on what causes downforce.
a cut out vent that is in the low pressure zone of the hood, fed by the front of the car will provide down force, in the same way that a splitter provides downforce. this has been proven by the vet guys back in 2001 when they visied the canada wind tunnel. what happens low pressure zone doesnt "suck "anything out. It provides a differential pressure path for the air comeing out of the radiator to go. air moves to differential pressure and where is it going to go. Ambient pressure is under the car, low pressure is on top ofthe hood. if there is a vent ,it will go that way. Air that before, wasnt vented out the hood, would end up under the car adding to the lift of the car. Splitters work the same way. the lip isnt being pushed on by the air, it is just a guide wall, if you wall, for the air to bunch up, compress and find a way around the nose ofthe car, usually to the sides. now, the downforce is due to the lack of air that normally is going under the car, being diverted to the sides of the car. Canards, winglets, dive planes work on a different principle. they are wings. Sure, the better you vent the air with ducting , the more efficient it is, but make no mistake, wings that fly, dont have to have bottoms. Just smooth tops. (like our hood. the front of our cars are like wing tops producing lift. vent the air from the radiator inlet and you spoil that lift and it all routes to the top of the hood increasing its pressure.Also, it adds to the air flow over the car and makes the rear wing more effective as well.
so, what the air entering the radiator area will do when vented to the hood is add reduce the vacuum , which in effect adds downforce
what the pro vet guys have done is , like you said. tilt the radiator way forward and use all that space for intake and downforce air. the only air that misses the radiator is that which is guided to the intake. This technique was proved to provide a great amount of downforce combinded with the small splitter.
now, as far as down force, you are confusing on what causes downforce.
a cut out vent that is in the low pressure zone of the hood, fed by the front of the car will provide down force, in the same way that a splitter provides downforce. this has been proven by the vet guys back in 2001 when they visied the canada wind tunnel. what happens low pressure zone doesnt "suck "anything out. It provides a differential pressure path for the air comeing out of the radiator to go. air moves to differential pressure and where is it going to go. Ambient pressure is under the car, low pressure is on top ofthe hood. if there is a vent ,it will go that way. Air that before, wasnt vented out the hood, would end up under the car adding to the lift of the car. Splitters work the same way. the lip isnt being pushed on by the air, it is just a guide wall, if you wall, for the air to bunch up, compress and find a way around the nose ofthe car, usually to the sides. now, the downforce is due to the lack of air that normally is going under the car, being diverted to the sides of the car. Canards, winglets, dive planes work on a different principle. they are wings. Sure, the better you vent the air with ducting , the more efficient it is, but make no mistake, wings that fly, dont have to have bottoms. Just smooth tops. (like our hood. the front of our cars are like wing tops producing lift. vent the air from the radiator inlet and you spoil that lift and it all routes to the top of the hood increasing its pressure.Also, it adds to the air flow over the car and makes the rear wing more effective as well.
so, what the air entering the radiator area will do when vented to the hood is add reduce the vacuum , which in effect adds downforce
what the pro vet guys have done is , like you said. tilt the radiator way forward and use all that space for intake and downforce air. the only air that misses the radiator is that which is guided to the intake. This technique was proved to provide a great amount of downforce combinded with the small splitter.
By instinct, I would say that force downforce with a wing is more efficient than a pressure differential downforce. (Someone could argu that ultimatly it's the same, but a wing actually physicly move air)
06-17-2009, 06:06 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Now you are getting into the long time debate. "why wings fly" Newtonian vs bernouli
Both are right. If you think about it, wings with 0 angle of attack can fly. the lower pressure up top vs the higher ambient pressure below, create differential pressure and the wing flys. (just like what we are talkiing about)
cut a hole at the nose of the wing and vent it to the low pressure section of the wing and it will lose lift. reduced lift= downforce. how much we can reduce the lift, determines the amount of downforce. the FordGT method is the best, but the others work too.
think of hood vents as open bottom wings and regular wings as the Ford GT method. Both create downforce. How the ground effects are changed is important as well, and the splitter used to keep air from going under the car, and routing it to the sides or through the hood vents are powerful ways to make downforce.
Here is a link to open bottom wings. no bottom, just an arched top. not as efficient, but the airplanes still flew.
http://www.century-of-flight.net/Avi...ng%20Wings.htm
mk
Both are right. If you think about it, wings with 0 angle of attack can fly. the lower pressure up top vs the higher ambient pressure below, create differential pressure and the wing flys. (just like what we are talkiing about)
cut a hole at the nose of the wing and vent it to the low pressure section of the wing and it will lose lift. reduced lift= downforce. how much we can reduce the lift, determines the amount of downforce. the FordGT method is the best, but the others work too.
think of hood vents as open bottom wings and regular wings as the Ford GT method. Both create downforce. How the ground effects are changed is important as well, and the splitter used to keep air from going under the car, and routing it to the sides or through the hood vents are powerful ways to make downforce.
Here is a link to open bottom wings. no bottom, just an arched top. not as efficient, but the airplanes still flew.
http://www.century-of-flight.net/Avi...ng%20Wings.htm
mk
If you say so... I'm in no way a specialist in this matter, and I try to learn.
By instinct, I would say that force downforce with a wing is more efficient than a pressure differential downforce. (Someone could argu that ultimatly it's the same, but a wing actually physicly move air)
By instinct, I would say that force downforce with a wing is more efficient than a pressure differential downforce. (Someone could argu that ultimatly it's the same, but a wing actually physicly move air)
06-17-2009, 07:00 PM
#45
Pro
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Québec, Québec, Canada
Posts: 695
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Now you are getting into the long time debate. "why wings fly" Newtonian vs bernouli
Both are right. If you think about it, wings with 0 angle of attack can fly. the lower pressure up top vs the higher ambient pressure below, create differential pressure and the wing flys. (just like what we are talkiing about)
cut a hole at the nose of the wing and vent it to the low pressure section of the wing and it will lose lift. reduced lift= downforce. how much we can reduce the lift, determines the amount of downforce. the FordGT method is the best, but the others work too.
think of hood vents as open bottom wings and regular wings as the Ford GT method. Both create downforce. How the ground effects are changed is important as well, and the splitter used to keep air from going under the car, and routing it to the sides or through the hood vents are powerful ways to make downforce.
Here is a link to open bottom wings. no bottom, just an arched top. not as efficient, but the airplanes still flew.
http://www.century-of-flight.net/Avi...ng%20Wings.htm
mk
Both are right. If you think about it, wings with 0 angle of attack can fly. the lower pressure up top vs the higher ambient pressure below, create differential pressure and the wing flys. (just like what we are talkiing about)
cut a hole at the nose of the wing and vent it to the low pressure section of the wing and it will lose lift. reduced lift= downforce. how much we can reduce the lift, determines the amount of downforce. the FordGT method is the best, but the others work too.
think of hood vents as open bottom wings and regular wings as the Ford GT method. Both create downforce. How the ground effects are changed is important as well, and the splitter used to keep air from going under the car, and routing it to the sides or through the hood vents are powerful ways to make downforce.
Here is a link to open bottom wings. no bottom, just an arched top. not as efficient, but the airplanes still flew.
http://www.century-of-flight.net/Avi...ng%20Wings.htm
mk
Wing at 0 angle works because of the shape of the wing. Flat wing on both side... aren't wing, they simply don't work.
Reduce lift != Downforce
When you get no lift, like when you jump off a plane, isn't downforce, it's gravity.
Downforce is actually taking a plane wing and putting it upside down. (Low pressure under, high pressure over)
Of course removing the air under the car does the same thing. Wasn't there a time in F1 that they were removing massive ammount of air under, making the car litterally stick to the road? Making them... "too fast" for safety? Don't remember were I saw that on TV.
