Anyone from 928 Motorsports care to comment? This seems odd.
05-08-2009, 12:43 AM
#61
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Wow this turned into a sensitive deal. The way I see it is that Carl got to explain the situation to a large number of current and potential customers rather than have people see the Ebay ad and just take it at face value.
Solely going on the Ebay ad alone, the evidence looks pretty damning against 928 Motorsports (I'm talking mostly about the bearing). But Carl's explanation helped to clear things up. Seems to me this thread did him far more good than harm and perhaps gave him insight into something that can be fixed (namely the bearing model numbers).
It seems clear to me that Bill was not attacking Carl in the least bit, but just pointing out that if someone didn't know the internals of the bearing had been upgraded evidence points to a bearing that is not suitable for the application, thus the reason for the anger on the customers part. Seems logical enough to me.
Solely going on the Ebay ad alone, the evidence looks pretty damning against 928 Motorsports (I'm talking mostly about the bearing). But Carl's explanation helped to clear things up. Seems to me this thread did him far more good than harm and perhaps gave him insight into something that can be fixed (namely the bearing model numbers).
It seems clear to me that Bill was not attacking Carl in the least bit, but just pointing out that if someone didn't know the internals of the bearing had been upgraded evidence points to a bearing that is not suitable for the application, thus the reason for the anger on the customers part. Seems logical enough to me.
05-08-2009, 05:27 AM
#62
Rennlist Member
I'm certainly not beating up Carl and his business. He's practically a saint in my mind for all he has done to provide creative solutions. It's good to come to Carl's defense, but I just don't think we should be blind to the customer's point of view. If you guys don't get how seeing KBC 6202Z could send somebody who didn't know Carl very well into an understandable flaming tirade, then OK, let's move on.
There used to be an adage in business that the customer is always right. I guess no one subscribes to that anymore, if they ever should have, but I believe it is wise to give customers benefit of the doubt or at least try to see their point of view first before suggesting they are wrong. There probably was no easy answer in this case. As Carl says he has never had a failure like this before, I can understand him standing his ground, but I think seeing that KBC 6202Z would have made me very unreasonable.
There used to be an adage in business that the customer is always right. I guess no one subscribes to that anymore, if they ever should have, but I believe it is wise to give customers benefit of the doubt or at least try to see their point of view first before suggesting they are wrong. There probably was no easy answer in this case. As Carl says he has never had a failure like this before, I can understand him standing his ground, but I think seeing that KBC 6202Z would have made me very unreasonable.
The information that the bearings are manufactured to Carl's spec is right there on the website, though he does not go so far as to mention that the customer should expect to see a generic number on the non-critical shield. Maybe if Carl had done so this guy would not be flaming -- but maybe he would. It's impossible to please everyone 100% when some percentage will be unreasonable and unplease-able.
05-08-2009, 06:42 AM
#63
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No ad on ebay to check the photo again to be certain but from memory that crack is in the compression side of the vane when subject to bending under operational load. Thus it would seem to me that the vane had to be bent by some external force (like being dropped before install) This would unbalance the rotor and make short work of even the best bearing in the world.
If the bearing went bad without previous vane damage it would surely affect all the vanes to some degree, more or less.
Seems to me that this is a classic case of obfuscation. (I've come across a few in the construction world that degenerate into litigation) Something gets built wrong (or in this case rotor vane gets damaged on install = built wrong) and subsequently a failure occurs. The builder (Mr Ebay ad in this case ) at whose feet the first complaints about the crack of whatever are laid, rapidly enlists a team of experts to prove it wasn't his fault. In the absence of incontrovertible evidence that it wasn't Builders fault the next best thing is to divert the attention pressure - find a whole host of other things that don't quite step up to the mark be they related or not.
In this case Mr Ebay ad starts looking for all and every possible thing associated with and or close to the failure that could somehow have a vague smell of being wrong or not quite up to scratch and up pops a seemingly inferior bearing.
Obfuscation challenge complete, waters apparently muddied sufficiently that the finger of blame starts to point somewhere else.
I'm not actually proud to admit that I have in the past had to play the role of the obfuscator on behalf of the "Builder" and at the direction of the Builders attorneys actually having to deliberately search for sufficient other vaguely "questionable" things to muddy the waters enough to deflect attenetion away from the builder. The net result was that another party "got the blame" and picked up the bill despite the fact that they hadn't designed or supplied anything bad. they just hadn't recorded the fact in a way that could prove it.
I've had a lesson strengthened by this thread - Not all bearings are the same. I replaced the bearings in the motor of our Dyson Vacuum cleaner. First time I just bought same number bearings from the bearing factors. When they went bad in no time at all I did a bit more research and discovered that the bearings I put in 1st were only rated to about 2/3 of the rpm of the motor. Doh. By chance I went to a different bearing factor for the 2nd replacements and asked for the higher rpm rated bearings (forget the specifics) - I was in my lunch hour and dressed in office attire so not your regular bearing buyer/Vacuum cleaner repairman.
Conversation went something like this - Factor asks me what the bearings are for, Vacuum cleaner? yes ? Oh you'll want these then, it's not a Dyson is it ? Errr yes, why ? Dyson bearings have a higher rating/tolerance etc You need these, the normal ones you asked for will only last a month or so.
Edit
I should add that I have no axe to grind in favour or against Carl. Other than I wholeheartedly support all those who are work to supply us owners with partsto refine, improve or just keep 928s affordable and on the road. And to keep some objective context I have in the past been critical (constructively I hope) of some of Carl's developments, both publicly and privately.
If the bearing went bad without previous vane damage it would surely affect all the vanes to some degree, more or less.
Seems to me that this is a classic case of obfuscation. (I've come across a few in the construction world that degenerate into litigation) Something gets built wrong (or in this case rotor vane gets damaged on install = built wrong) and subsequently a failure occurs. The builder (Mr Ebay ad in this case ) at whose feet the first complaints about the crack of whatever are laid, rapidly enlists a team of experts to prove it wasn't his fault. In the absence of incontrovertible evidence that it wasn't Builders fault the next best thing is to divert the attention pressure - find a whole host of other things that don't quite step up to the mark be they related or not.
In this case Mr Ebay ad starts looking for all and every possible thing associated with and or close to the failure that could somehow have a vague smell of being wrong or not quite up to scratch and up pops a seemingly inferior bearing.
Obfuscation challenge complete, waters apparently muddied sufficiently that the finger of blame starts to point somewhere else.
I'm not actually proud to admit that I have in the past had to play the role of the obfuscator on behalf of the "Builder" and at the direction of the Builders attorneys actually having to deliberately search for sufficient other vaguely "questionable" things to muddy the waters enough to deflect attenetion away from the builder. The net result was that another party "got the blame" and picked up the bill despite the fact that they hadn't designed or supplied anything bad. they just hadn't recorded the fact in a way that could prove it.
I've had a lesson strengthened by this thread - Not all bearings are the same. I replaced the bearings in the motor of our Dyson Vacuum cleaner. First time I just bought same number bearings from the bearing factors. When they went bad in no time at all I did a bit more research and discovered that the bearings I put in 1st were only rated to about 2/3 of the rpm of the motor. Doh. By chance I went to a different bearing factor for the 2nd replacements and asked for the higher rpm rated bearings (forget the specifics) - I was in my lunch hour and dressed in office attire so not your regular bearing buyer/Vacuum cleaner repairman.
Conversation went something like this - Factor asks me what the bearings are for, Vacuum cleaner? yes ? Oh you'll want these then, it's not a Dyson is it ? Errr yes, why ? Dyson bearings have a higher rating/tolerance etc You need these, the normal ones you asked for will only last a month or so.
Edit
I should add that I have no axe to grind in favour or against Carl. Other than I wholeheartedly support all those who are work to supply us owners with partsto refine, improve or just keep 928s affordable and on the road. And to keep some objective context I have in the past been critical (constructively I hope) of some of Carl's developments, both publicly and privately.
Last edited by jon928se; 05-08-2009 at 06:52 AM. Reason: Brain runs away
05-08-2009, 07:02 AM
#64
Instructor
No ad on ebay to check the photo again to be certain but from memory that crack is in the compression side of the vane when subject to bending under operational load. Thus it would seem to me that the vane had to be bent by some external force (like being dropped before install) This would unbalance the rotor and make short work of even the best bearing in the world.
If the bearing went bad without previous vane damage it would surely affect all the vanes to some degree, more or less.
.
If the bearing went bad without previous vane damage it would surely affect all the vanes to some degree, more or less.
.
I should post some pics of a compressor wheel that has failed due to FOD or cracked at high speed for us to see?
Glenn
'81 928
Australia
05-08-2009, 07:08 AM
#65
Addict
Rennlist Member
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Please do Glenn if only for morbid engineering interest.
PS isn't it great not having to snip !
PS isn't it great not having to snip !
Last edited by jon928se; 05-08-2009 at 07:08 AM. Reason: lexdysic fingers
05-08-2009, 07:22 AM
#66
Instructor
Morbid engineering interest! Now I know why I own a 928 
Off work for a few days as it's the weekend here, but I will grab some photos of recent compressor failures if it's not going to upset the non believers of how cracks apear.
I have just relised where you are from Jon928se, hello from down south.
I must remind myself to become a member here.
Glenn
'81 928
Melbourne
Off work for a few days as it's the weekend here, but I will grab some photos of recent compressor failures if it's not going to upset the non believers of how cracks apear.
I have just relised where you are from Jon928se, hello from down south.
I must remind myself to become a member here.
Glenn
'81 928
Melbourne
05-08-2009, 11:03 AM
#67
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Mr. Allore only shows the close-up of the impeller vane, not a far away pic to see if it was dropped. Which it probably was....or maybe if Mr. Allore is not using a surge valve, maybe surge air cracked the vane.
I read his posts on superchargeronline. I'm always turned off by people that feel they have to list their life's accoments in-order to prove their are an expert on the subject.
I have been dealing with Carl and his products for five years now. I have his Powerdyne S/C (To keep cost down I asked Carl for one of his rebuilt heads, not new) and upgraded to the 928 impeller. Never had any trouble. Called Carl many times and he would stop what he is doing to answer my questions, always professional.
Carl has a history of sharing his testing, results, and findings with this community. (Just read the latest thread of sheet metal intake for the 16V) I never had a problem with his products, warranty, or exchanges.
Loyal 928 Motorsports Supporter,
Tony
I read his posts on superchargeronline. I'm always turned off by people that feel they have to list their life's accoments in-order to prove their are an expert on the subject.
I have been dealing with Carl and his products for five years now. I have his Powerdyne S/C (To keep cost down I asked Carl for one of his rebuilt heads, not new) and upgraded to the 928 impeller. Never had any trouble. Called Carl many times and he would stop what he is doing to answer my questions, always professional.
Carl has a history of sharing his testing, results, and findings with this community. (Just read the latest thread of sheet metal intake for the 16V) I never had a problem with his products, warranty, or exchanges.
Loyal 928 Motorsports Supporter,
Tony
05-08-2009, 11:05 AM
#68
Drifting
Thread Starter
Solely going on the Ebay ad alone, the evidence looks pretty damning against 928 Motorsports (I'm talking mostly about the bearing). But Carl's explanation helped to clear things up. Seems to me this thread did him far more good than harm and perhaps gave him insight into something that can be fixed (namely the bearing model numbers).
