blower issue I
03-12-2009, 01:02 PM
#31
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Tony,
Sorry if I did not make that clear on the resistor pack - Thats why I refered you to Pirtles and Nichols and also sent you a copy of Wally's superb HVAC write up.
However as I told you, you are in good hands now. Its always difficult to trouble shoot from 1000 miles away.
Roger
Sorry if I did not make that clear on the resistor pack - Thats why I refered you to Pirtles and Nichols and also sent you a copy of Wally's superb HVAC write up.
However as I told you, you are in good hands now. Its always difficult to trouble shoot from 1000 miles away.
Roger
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Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014
928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
03-12-2009, 01:55 PM
#32
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Robot 808, Thanks for the info I tried the smoke thing and it looked as though it was sucking in some of the smoke so I think the sensor is working I had a burning paper in front of it and some of the smoke got sucked in I really don't know how strong that fan should be but I did see it take in some smoke so it is sucking in somewhat anyway, I have a good idea on wiring diagrams but if you don't know what wire in what block of wiires to follow then it makes it very hard, the relay itself is easy it shows the diagram on it, but how do you know what wire goes to say 85 on the relay or 86 on the relay or 30 or 87 where do they start and end there are many blocks of wires at the bottom of the relay panel and I am sure one is for X relay (blower relay) so how do you know which wire is 86 or 87 or 30 or 85, some one said the blocks are color coded so if I know which wires to follow then I can follow them, but I think the inside sendsor is ok so I can possibly rule that out so I am back to wiring I think. I just need to know when I am testing the relay X (blower relay) is it pluged in or is it removed to access the slots for testing and should I use the ground of the relay or a seperate grounding sourse. Thanks looks like you like music I jam myself got 2 Les Pauls on gold top also SRV strat and 6/12 gibson like in Led Zep vidio and flying V as well as Hofner fiddle bass like Paul of the old band you may remember, the Beatles. A couple of acustics and some recording stuff to fool around with. Tahks for your help i will learn how to fix this issue but i first want to hear back from roger to see if I SHOULD HAVE CHANGED SOME WIRES WHEN UI ISTALLED THE NEW RESISTER PACK. ROGER IF YOU ARE OUT THERE LET ME KNOW OK.
03-12-2009, 02:14 PM
#33
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YES.............per the diagram I posted and the instructions from Alan you need to make 2 mods to the wiring of the resistor pack connector.
03-12-2009, 02:31 PM
#34
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ALAN I HAVE THE WIRE EXPOSED IN THE PACK PLUG, I DO NOT SEE ANYTHING CONNECTING 4 AND 8 TOGETHER, WHEN I SWAP THE PINS FROM 6 TO 8 WHAT DO I DO WITH THE NUMBER 8 PIN, TRUST ME I AM TRYING TO FOLLOW YOU BUT I DON'T SEE ANYTHING CONNECTING 4 AND 8, MAYBE LET ME KNOW IF YOU CAN WHAT I DO WITH THE 8 PIN THERE NOW????
03-12-2009, 02:37 PM
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aLAN WHEN YOU SAY CUT / REMOVE RE/WT DO YO MEAN CUT THE WIRE OFF OF NUMBER 8 PIN AND TAKE IT OUT COMPLETELY BECAUSE I DO NOT HOW IT IS CONNECTED TO 4 PIN AT ALL. THANKS TONY
03-12-2009, 02:47 PM
#36
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There should be a red/white wire that runs from Pin 8 to pin 4 (possibly looped in the loom) - a red wire also connects to pin 4 (eg 2 wires to 1 pin). Remove the pin 8 terminal on the red/white wire - just take the whole pin out (you don't need it) and put the terminal from Pin 6 location in its place. Once you see everything works correctly you can trim off the extra Pin 8 at a convenient point.
Alan
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03-12-2009, 03:35 PM
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OK I WILL LOOK AGAIN BUT I DID NOT SEE ANYTHING CONNECTING, DO YOU KNOW WHAT SIZE SCREW HOLD THE PACK IN, ONE IS MISSING AND I MAY NOT BE MAKING GOOD CONTACT WHEN I PLUG THE PLUG IN. I TOOK OFF 8 PIN PUT NUMBER 6 PIN THERE BUT WAS NOTHING INSIDE THE PLUG THAT CONNECTED 8 AND 4 IT MAY BE SOME WHERE IN THE HARNESS BUT NOT IN THE PLUG BUT I TOOK OUT NUMBER 8 COMPLETELY ANYWAY AND PUT 6 THERE LIKE YOU SIAD BUT I THINK I MAY NOT BE MAKING GOOD CONTACT WHEN I PLUG IT IN ONE SCREW IS NOT IN THE RESISTER PACK TO HOLD IT TIGHT IN PLACE, SO I AM IN SEARCH OF A SCREW TO USE TO HOLD IT BACK IN PLACE TIGHT THEN TRY AGAIN. I THINK I HAVE THE WIRING RIGHT THIS TIIME ACORDING TO WHAT YOU TOLD ME, SO UNTIL I FIND THE RIGHT SCREW TO HOLD THE PACK TIGHT SO I CAN PUSH THE PLUG IN TIGHT I WON'T BE ABLE TO TEST THE UNIT. I DID DO THE SMOKE TEST ON THE INSIDE SENSOR AND IT SEEMED TO TAKE IN SOME SMOKE SO IT MUST BE WORKING SOME ANYWAY. I MAY STILL HAVE AN ISSUE WITH WIRES TO THE HEAD OR CONTROL UNIT OR THE BLOWER FROM RELAY BUT I AM TRYING TO LEARN AND YOU ARE VERY HELPFUL AND I MUST SAY PATIENT AS WELL FOR SUCH A DUMMY LIKE ME. THANKS SO MUCH I THOUGHT I KEPT THE OLD RESISTER PACK SO I COULD MATCH UP A SCREW BUT I CAN NOT FIND THE OLD PACK SO I HAVE TO GO TO THE HARDWARE STORE AND JUST KEEP TRYING SCREWS UNTIL ON FITS DO THEY NEED TO BE BRASS FOR GROUNDING REASONS? THANKS TONY
03-12-2009, 04:36 PM
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WALLYP, DOES MY RESISTER PACK HAVE TO BE PLUGED IN WHEN I TEST FROM 86 TO 87 ON THE RELAY OR SHOULD THE BLOWER RUN ANYWAY EVEN IF THE RESISTER PACK IS UN PLUGED? I AM MISSSNG A SCREW TO KEEP THE PACK SET TIGHT SO I CAN'T BE SURE THE PLUG IS IN TIGHT ON THE PACK BUT WOULD IT MAKE A DIFFERNCE WHEN JUMPING 86 TO 87 THE SEE WHERE MY ISSUE MAY BE, I HAD 12+ VDC ON 30 AND ON 86 BUT MY PACK IS UNPLUGED PRESENTLY SO I DID NOT HEAR THE BLOWER COME ON WHEN I WENT FROM 86 TO 87, WHICH YOU SAID WOULD INDICATE PROBLEM BETWEEN RELAY 87 WIRE AN BLOWER, WHEN I FIND A SCREW TO HOLD THE RESISTER PACK TIGHT AGAIN I WILL TRY IT OVER, WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO JUMP THE TEMPORARY JUMP FROM 86 TO 87 USEING A PAPER CLIP OR WHAT, I TRIED TO USE THE MULTI TESTER I HAD, LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK SO FAR I WILL GET THE SCREW IN PLACE AND PLUG IN THE RESISTER TIGHT TO MAKE SURE IT IS IN PLACE THEN TRY TO JUMP 86 TO 87 AGAIN IF THE BLOWER DOES NOT RUN YOU SAID PROBLEM WOULD BE FROM RELAY TO BLOWER WHERE DOES 87 WIRE START TO TRACE IT AND WHERE WOULD IT BE GOING TO ON THE BLOWER? THANKS SO MUCH.
03-12-2009, 05:24 PM
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Hi Tony
Mine was sucking in NOTHING as all.....now with a new one its obviously sucking it in, if you blow smoke near it.....
Try putting you head flat on the dash and blowing smoke ACROSS it....it SHOULD BE PULLED IN.....if not....its not working....
All the best Brett
03-12-2009, 10:46 PM
#42
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Tony,
First, a request - use mixed case. It is much easier to read a post that is not in all caps. Many people who frequent forums consider all caps to be the equivalent of shouting, and won't even bother to read such a post.
WALLYP, DOES MY RESISTER PACK HAVE TO BE PLUGED IN WHEN I TEST FROM 86 TO 87 ON THE RELAY OR SHOULD THE BLOWER RUN ANYWAY EVEN IF THE RESISTER PACK IS UN PLUGED?
We were told that you have the wiring diagrams. If not, it will be VERY difficult for you to troubleshoot electrical problems. If you do have the diagrams, get Page 97-221 labeled "Wiring Diagram Type 928 S Model 85 page 4", and have it in front of you as you read this post.
In the box in the center of the page, in its lower left corner, you will find a box labeled "FRESH AIR BLOWER" - this is Relay X, the blower relay.
There are four numbered terminals on the top of the relay.
- 30 is the power input to the relay from Fuse #17. Find the wire attached to Terminal 87. As long as the line representing this wire is inside the heavy box (the Central Electrical System), the wire is behind the panel. Follow the line to the heavy line, where it connects to a circle labeled "G21". This is where the interior wire connects to the outside world. G means plug "G" - plugs are identified from A on the left to W on the right, with no I plug. On the later cars, the number identifies the specific terminal. The first digit shows which side (1, left; or 2, right) of the plug is used, and the second digit shows which slot, from the bottom up. Therefore, G21 means the bottom-most terminal on the right side of Plug G. B12 would be the second terminal up on the left side of Plug B.
At G21, the wire turns into a medium-sized (2.5) red (rt) wire. This wire runs from G21 up to VS VIII, which is a hard connection point - not a connector, but a junction of wires.
From there, a smaller (1.5) red wire runs to Terminal 5, the wiper of the Blower Switch. The Blower Switch then connects to one of the four wires (Terminals 1 thru 4) for the four blower speeds.
Terminal 1 feeds a smaller (1.0) white wire to Terminal 1 of the Resistance Group.Power on this terminal flows thru three of the wire resistors, to Terminal 6 to give a low speed.
Terminal 2 feeds a larger (2.0) white wire with a green stripe to Terminal 5 of the Resistance Group. Power from this terminal flows thru two of the resistors to Terminal 6 to give a slightly higher speed.
Terminal 3 feeds a 2.0 white/blue wire to Terminal 7 of the Resistance Group. Power from this terminal flows thru one resistor to Terminal 6 to give a medium high speed.
Terminal 4 feeds a larger (2.5) black wire directly to Terminal 6, bypassing all of the resistors, giving the highest speed.
In addition, from junction VS VIII, a 1.5 red wire runs to Terminal 4 of the Resistance Group. Power from this terminal flows one of two ways - thru all four wire resistors, giving a very slow blower speed; or from Terminal 4 back out on a red/white wire to Terminal 8. Power from Terminal 8 flows to a thermal switch on top of the block. If the thermal switch gets hot, it closes. This sends the power to Terminal 6, bypassing all of the resistors. When the switch cools, it opens, breaking the circuit, and the blower goes back to the speed set by the switch.
This is as simple an explanation as I can give of the basic current flow to the blower thru the normal circuit.
It is critical that you study this explanation and the wiring diagram until you understand it. Otherwise, you might need to find a tech who can fix the blower circuit for you.
87 is the power output to the "Blower Switch" at the top of the page.
85 is the ground terminal for the electrical coil that operates the relay, hooked to MP V (Mass Point, European for ground connection, number V)
86 is the power to trigger the electrical coil that operates the relay, fed from the "AC-Control Switch" at the top left of the page. This is usually called the control head for the HVAC system.
I AM MISSSNG A SCREW TO KEEP THE PACK SET TIGHT SO I CAN'T BE SURE THE PLUG IS IN TIGHT ON THE PACK BUT WOULD IT MAKE A DIFFERNCE WHEN JUMPING 86 TO 87 THE SEE WHERE MY ISSUE MAY BE, I HAD 12+ VDC ON 30 AND ON 86 BUT MY PACK IS UNPLUGED PRESENTLY SO I DID NOT HEAR THE BLOWER COME ON WHEN I WENT FROM 86 TO 87, WHICH YOU SAID WOULD INDICATE PROBLEM BETWEEN RELAY 87 WIRE AN BLOWER,
No, read the message (repeated below) again. I said to connect Terminal 30 (power) to Terminal 87 (load).
If you understand the paragraphs above, it should be obvious that the blower will not run if the Resistance Group is disconnected.
WHEN I FIND A SCREW TO HOLD THE RESISTER PACK TIGHT AGAIN I WILL TRY IT OVER, WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO JUMP THE TEMPORARY JUMP FROM 86 TO 87 USEING A PAPER CLIP OR WHAT, I TRIED TO USE THE MULTI TESTER I HAD, LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK SO FAR I WILL GET THE SCREW IN PLACE AND PLUG IN THE RESISTER TIGHT TO MAKE SURE IT IS IN PLACE THEN TRY TO JUMP 86 TO 87 AGAIN IF THE BLOWER DOES NOT RUN YOU SAID PROBLEM WOULD BE FROM RELAY TO BLOWER WHERE DOES 87 WIRE START TO TRACE IT AND WHERE WOULD IT BE GOING TO ON THE BLOWER? THANKS SO MUCH.
The best thing to do is to construct a Relay Jumper Tool. Get:
- A SPST (Single Pole Single Throw) toggle switch with OFF and ON clearly marked on the switch.
- Three feet of lamp cord, sometimes called zip cord. This is the two-conductor brown or white wire used to hook a table lamp to the wall socket.
- Two 1/4" male flat spade terminals.
Hook the 1/4" terminals to the conductors on one end of the lamp cord. Hook the conductors on the other end of the wire to the toggle switch terminals.
Plug the connectors into the appropriate terminals in a relay socket. The switch lets you turn the jumpered circuit on and off.
Repeat of my earlier post:
Get your wiring diagrams out, and look at Page 97-221,
In the box in the center of the page, in its lower left corner, you will find a box labeled "FRESH AIR BLOWER" - this is Relay X, the blower relay. There are four numbered terminals on the top of the relay.
30 is the power input to the relay from Fuse #17
87 is the power output to the "Blower Switch" at the top of the page.
85 is the ground terminal for the electrical coil that operates the relay, hooked to MP V (Mass Point, European for ground connection, number V)
86 is the power to trigger the electrical coil that operates the relay, fed from the "AC-Control Switch" at the top left of the page. This is usually called the control head for the HVAC system.
To start actually finding what is wrong with your blower:
- Find Relay X and remove it. Look carefully at the diagram on the relay, and identify the four terminals listed above in the socket for the relay. Make sure that you know which is which.
- Using a 12 volt test light or a voltmeter or multimeter, test for 12 vdc on terminal 30. If you have power on terminal 30, then Fuse #17 is OK. (It should be, because the same fuse feeds the Defrost Relay, which does run the blower.)
- Turn the ignition switch on, and move the lower HVAC lever to anything except the left end or Defrost. Check for 12 vdc on Terminal 86. If you have no power here, the problem is in the wire between Terminal 86 and the control head. You must have 12 vdc on Terminal 86 for the blower to run.
- If you have 12 vdc on Terminal 30 and on Terminal 86, then temporarily connect Terminal 30 to Terminal 87. The blower should run. If it does not run with Terminal 30 connected to Terminal 87, the problem is between Terminal 87 and the blower motor.
Let us know in precise detail what you find.
First, a request - use mixed case. It is much easier to read a post that is not in all caps. Many people who frequent forums consider all caps to be the equivalent of shouting, and won't even bother to read such a post.
WALLYP, DOES MY RESISTER PACK HAVE TO BE PLUGED IN WHEN I TEST FROM 86 TO 87 ON THE RELAY OR SHOULD THE BLOWER RUN ANYWAY EVEN IF THE RESISTER PACK IS UN PLUGED?
We were told that you have the wiring diagrams. If not, it will be VERY difficult for you to troubleshoot electrical problems. If you do have the diagrams, get Page 97-221 labeled "Wiring Diagram Type 928 S Model 85 page 4", and have it in front of you as you read this post.
In the box in the center of the page, in its lower left corner, you will find a box labeled "FRESH AIR BLOWER" - this is Relay X, the blower relay.
There are four numbered terminals on the top of the relay.
- 30 is the power input to the relay from Fuse #17. Find the wire attached to Terminal 87. As long as the line representing this wire is inside the heavy box (the Central Electrical System), the wire is behind the panel. Follow the line to the heavy line, where it connects to a circle labeled "G21". This is where the interior wire connects to the outside world. G means plug "G" - plugs are identified from A on the left to W on the right, with no I plug. On the later cars, the number identifies the specific terminal. The first digit shows which side (1, left; or 2, right) of the plug is used, and the second digit shows which slot, from the bottom up. Therefore, G21 means the bottom-most terminal on the right side of Plug G. B12 would be the second terminal up on the left side of Plug B.
At G21, the wire turns into a medium-sized (2.5) red (rt) wire. This wire runs from G21 up to VS VIII, which is a hard connection point - not a connector, but a junction of wires.
From there, a smaller (1.5) red wire runs to Terminal 5, the wiper of the Blower Switch. The Blower Switch then connects to one of the four wires (Terminals 1 thru 4) for the four blower speeds.
Terminal 1 feeds a smaller (1.0) white wire to Terminal 1 of the Resistance Group.Power on this terminal flows thru three of the wire resistors, to Terminal 6 to give a low speed.
Terminal 2 feeds a larger (2.0) white wire with a green stripe to Terminal 5 of the Resistance Group. Power from this terminal flows thru two of the resistors to Terminal 6 to give a slightly higher speed.
Terminal 3 feeds a 2.0 white/blue wire to Terminal 7 of the Resistance Group. Power from this terminal flows thru one resistor to Terminal 6 to give a medium high speed.
Terminal 4 feeds a larger (2.5) black wire directly to Terminal 6, bypassing all of the resistors, giving the highest speed.
In addition, from junction VS VIII, a 1.5 red wire runs to Terminal 4 of the Resistance Group. Power from this terminal flows one of two ways - thru all four wire resistors, giving a very slow blower speed; or from Terminal 4 back out on a red/white wire to Terminal 8. Power from Terminal 8 flows to a thermal switch on top of the block. If the thermal switch gets hot, it closes. This sends the power to Terminal 6, bypassing all of the resistors. When the switch cools, it opens, breaking the circuit, and the blower goes back to the speed set by the switch.
This is as simple an explanation as I can give of the basic current flow to the blower thru the normal circuit.
It is critical that you study this explanation and the wiring diagram until you understand it. Otherwise, you might need to find a tech who can fix the blower circuit for you.
87 is the power output to the "Blower Switch" at the top of the page.
85 is the ground terminal for the electrical coil that operates the relay, hooked to MP V (Mass Point, European for ground connection, number V)
86 is the power to trigger the electrical coil that operates the relay, fed from the "AC-Control Switch" at the top left of the page. This is usually called the control head for the HVAC system.
I AM MISSSNG A SCREW TO KEEP THE PACK SET TIGHT SO I CAN'T BE SURE THE PLUG IS IN TIGHT ON THE PACK BUT WOULD IT MAKE A DIFFERNCE WHEN JUMPING 86 TO 87 THE SEE WHERE MY ISSUE MAY BE, I HAD 12+ VDC ON 30 AND ON 86 BUT MY PACK IS UNPLUGED PRESENTLY SO I DID NOT HEAR THE BLOWER COME ON WHEN I WENT FROM 86 TO 87, WHICH YOU SAID WOULD INDICATE PROBLEM BETWEEN RELAY 87 WIRE AN BLOWER,
No, read the message (repeated below) again. I said to connect Terminal 30 (power) to Terminal 87 (load).
If you understand the paragraphs above, it should be obvious that the blower will not run if the Resistance Group is disconnected.
WHEN I FIND A SCREW TO HOLD THE RESISTER PACK TIGHT AGAIN I WILL TRY IT OVER, WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO JUMP THE TEMPORARY JUMP FROM 86 TO 87 USEING A PAPER CLIP OR WHAT, I TRIED TO USE THE MULTI TESTER I HAD, LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK SO FAR I WILL GET THE SCREW IN PLACE AND PLUG IN THE RESISTER TIGHT TO MAKE SURE IT IS IN PLACE THEN TRY TO JUMP 86 TO 87 AGAIN IF THE BLOWER DOES NOT RUN YOU SAID PROBLEM WOULD BE FROM RELAY TO BLOWER WHERE DOES 87 WIRE START TO TRACE IT AND WHERE WOULD IT BE GOING TO ON THE BLOWER? THANKS SO MUCH.
The best thing to do is to construct a Relay Jumper Tool. Get:
- A SPST (Single Pole Single Throw) toggle switch with OFF and ON clearly marked on the switch.
- Three feet of lamp cord, sometimes called zip cord. This is the two-conductor brown or white wire used to hook a table lamp to the wall socket.
- Two 1/4" male flat spade terminals.
Hook the 1/4" terminals to the conductors on one end of the lamp cord. Hook the conductors on the other end of the wire to the toggle switch terminals.
Plug the connectors into the appropriate terminals in a relay socket. The switch lets you turn the jumpered circuit on and off.
Repeat of my earlier post:
Get your wiring diagrams out, and look at Page 97-221,
In the box in the center of the page, in its lower left corner, you will find a box labeled "FRESH AIR BLOWER" - this is Relay X, the blower relay. There are four numbered terminals on the top of the relay.
30 is the power input to the relay from Fuse #17
87 is the power output to the "Blower Switch" at the top of the page.
85 is the ground terminal for the electrical coil that operates the relay, hooked to MP V (Mass Point, European for ground connection, number V)
86 is the power to trigger the electrical coil that operates the relay, fed from the "AC-Control Switch" at the top left of the page. This is usually called the control head for the HVAC system.
To start actually finding what is wrong with your blower:
- Find Relay X and remove it. Look carefully at the diagram on the relay, and identify the four terminals listed above in the socket for the relay. Make sure that you know which is which.
- Using a 12 volt test light or a voltmeter or multimeter, test for 12 vdc on terminal 30. If you have power on terminal 30, then Fuse #17 is OK. (It should be, because the same fuse feeds the Defrost Relay, which does run the blower.)
- Turn the ignition switch on, and move the lower HVAC lever to anything except the left end or Defrost. Check for 12 vdc on Terminal 86. If you have no power here, the problem is in the wire between Terminal 86 and the control head. You must have 12 vdc on Terminal 86 for the blower to run.
- If you have 12 vdc on Terminal 30 and on Terminal 86, then temporarily connect Terminal 30 to Terminal 87. The blower should run. If it does not run with Terminal 30 connected to Terminal 87, the problem is between Terminal 87 and the blower motor.
Let us know in precise detail what you find.
03-12-2009, 11:19 PM
#44
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Hi Wally
Wow, that has to be the best technical post I have EVER read
Ignoring the fantastic technical content, you must have the patience of a saint...
Anytime you want to pop over to the Uk.... could you please rewire my S2
All the best Brett
Wow, that has to be the best technical post I have EVER read
Ignoring the fantastic technical content, you must have the patience of a saint...
Anytime you want to pop over to the Uk.... could you please rewire my S2
All the best Brett
03-13-2009, 12:30 PM
#45
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WallyP, sorry abpout the all caps deal did not know i have printed the diagram out and i have looked at it I also have changed the wires in the resister pack as you said to do, I do not have 12vdc on 86 so I guess i have a problem with th wire from 86 to the heqd of the blower plug five big prongs plug not the lagere flat temp plug, because i do have pwer on one wite of that plug, It looks like I will have to remove the wholepanel to find which wire is in which block to trace the issue back to the head prongs number 5 on the control unit or climate head what ever you want to call it. I have followed the wires you described in your explantion of the diagram and I see where it does what you say, I must first try to find the wire that goes to the the blower plug and follow it to find out why I have no power going to that plug I think you caled it G21 for 87 but I think it is G something else for 86 on the relay I am trying trust me I want to learn this but I am not great on the wiring stuff, Yesterday i am positive I saw 12+vdc on 86 but today I do not have any power ther so I am going to try and find out where that wire is on the wires, I think if I read it right it would be G14 but I am only trying to see if I am starting to understand what you are saying by looking at the diagram and following the wire to that first circle 86 looks like it goes to G14 am I right? I think I have both things wrong no power to the blower switch or the head. looks like I nne to remove the whole panel and see what may be off or loos or burnt on the back of the panel the relay plug is not sending power out or at least I am not getting pwer to the relay 86 or 87 which i think 86 must somehow be fead by the ignigtion being turned on, so somehow I am not geting power to 86 on the relay plug. I have no power to the A/c plug either or at least it does not light up when you push it in. in defroster it will light up because 30 works. I have to find out why 86 and 87 won't, and you you may be right I may have to take it to a elecrician to fix this or eplace the whole panel since you say the wires are behind the paneland i have to follow them to the big wire of the plug they are in which at this point i asume is G. for both 86 an 87. Like I said i am chalanged byt ll of this so I may be waisting your time even with the diagram in my hand I m not sure if a wir continues on on splits when it meets solid section of the diagram. like leaving the resister group 6 which is now unused used to feed the blower moter but now somhow I think 8 does since I moved 6 to 8 hopefully some of what I am saying makes since to you if not then I am really waisting your time but I want to learn how since electrical issues are a real problem with these cars.