SharkSkin

Good stuff, Ben -- I read this thread earlier today and meant to come back and suggest that the timing should be double-checked. In the second pic in the OP, it looks like the distributor and #1 plug wire are in approx. the correct position. Turn the engine to TDC and make sure the timing marks(visible through the small fitting on top of the timing cover) are lined up, then make sure the rotor is pointing to #1. There should be a mark for this on the distributor(I see you've found my writeup on this so I won't bother with another link).

Remember that cylinder numbering is not odd/even banks like domestics; below is the layout and firing order:

fomanchu

Ben/Sharkskin,

I will check timing again. I must admit this is the one area I troubled with. Last week, I attempted to adjust time and the car would just spin not even start and rumble. I have lined up the passenger side cam gear mark w/the T|0 crank mark and the notch on the distributor. I will try to take pics and post tonight. Only thing is I will be leaving for Dallas (Hello Roger!!) and Houston tomorrow and wont be able to anything until next weekend.

Thanks for all the help and support Ben, Sharkskin and everyone else!!

SharkSkin

You can see the pickup in the distributor with the cap, rotor, and plate under the rotor removed. If you set it so that at TDC one of the fingers on the reluctor is almost lined up with the pickup, it should at least fire.

fomanchu

Shark/Ben,

I went out and lined up the crank, both cam gears and removed cap.rotor and cover. I push the rotor back on and the mark is off by about 1/4 inch. Do i just lift, twist and reinstall distributor and then install cap with plug 1 facing this mark?

SharkSkin

It looks like it may be firing early, maybe between two posts in the cap. The first post in this thread showed the distributor in what looks like a full clockwise position. Check me on this -- it looks like your #1 wire is installed right over that mark, correct? Then #8 should be counterclockwise along the cap and # should be clockwise from #1. By the time the engine rotates to this point, assuming #8 has not fired, there should be a fuel/air mix in #8, #1, and #3. It should do SOMETHING... backfire, fire weakly, something.

Couple things to check:

1) Re-stab the distributor. At #1 TDC by the marks on the cams & crank, the distributor should be installed so the main timing adjustment is mid-range, the rotor is pointing at the mark and the reluctor is nearly lined up as your pic shows(give or take). With everything lined up this way it should at least TRY to fire(may or may not actually run). If it doesn't...

2) Clean the plugs. You can try heating the electrodes with a small butane torch until they are clean and dry, then reinstall. Before reinstalling you can hook them to plug wires and see if they spark, but make sure they are well clear of the open plug holes in the cylinders before cranking so you don't set the thing on fire. Remove the fuel pump relay for this test.

If the engine is flooded, it should be dried out by the time you get back to it next week. Before you go, pull the dipstick and see if it smells like fuel. If there is a strong fuel smell in the oil you might want to check it again when you get back and maybe change it. Note that cranking the engine with the plugs out ought to clear the cylinders if they are flooded.

When you get back, if it doesn't fire with the distributor realigned and the fuel pump relay installed, drop about a teaspoon of gas in the #1 plug hole and try again, just to see if it fires at all.

Try to crank the engine as little as possible to do these checks -- remember, you are getting fuel on the cylinder walls, and not much oil!

I can think of other things to try but I'd like to hear where the above takes you before offering more.

fomanchu

Check me on this -- it looks like your #1 wire is installed right over that mark, correct? YES that is correct
!

I've taken all the plugs out and cleaned them..some were soaked. I will unbolt the distributor and re align with the notch at tdc. I do have have a slight gas smell in the oil .. so I will change.

Thanks..I will let you know next week what happens!

fomanchu

Ok..

I set the timing (I think) and rotated the engine one full cycle (passed tdc twice on the crank) and everything is lined up still. I wont start it until next week after I change the oil.

Below are the timing mark and how the distributor should be set.

Thanks..

SharkSkin

That looks way off. Gently lift the distributor out, keeping light clockwise tension on the rotor. Lift just enough to get the distributor shaft free of the cam teeth, and drop it back on the cam one tooth clockwise from where it is now.

See the bolt mark in the center of the timing adjustment slot? What you want is for the bolt to be near the center of that slot -- where the mark is, give or take -- and have the rotor line up with the mark on the edge of the distributor. That should get your timing close enough to fire.

As for the oil, the risk there is that fuel may have thinned the oil, in which case it won't lubricate properly. It doesn't take much gas to make it stink, but evaluating how much is in there can be tricky and subjective. Maybe someone who is not halfway across the country would be willing to make that call, but I'm not.

fomanchu

Sharskin,

Oil is cheap insurance against a fire! Next Saturday I will do the following:

a) unbolt the distributor and lift while holding the rotor w/clockwise tension. Lift one tooth to align the rotor w/the notch on the distributor.

b) Move the distributor to the center line and tighten.

c) Install cap w/cylinder 1 at rotor and notch

** Dumb Question **
I'm assuming I will need to lift and re-adjust the distributor after adjusting the distributor to the center line.

BTW, Im in Dallas at the hotel that will be used for OCIC..darn I wish I could be here in July..

Ben Allison

echo the comment about it still being off. Although (judging from the picture) this might be close enough to get it to fire up now, the adjustment bolt should be in the middle of the adjustment area.

SharkSkin

Fuel in the oil is not likely to be much of a fire hazard -- more of an insufficient lubrication/fried bearings(or worse) problem.

Basically, you have it right but read on a bit for more about step (b).

The wires and cap should all be marked -- there ought to be no reason to connect things contrary to the markings. I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here, but maybe this will help:

When you remove the hold-down bolt, you will be lifting both the distributor and the distributor shaft as a unit. You will lift it just far enough so that you can spin the shaft(where the rotor attaches) to the next tooth on the cam.

Then you will push the distributor and shaft assembly back down until it seats back in the cam tower. Once it is seated, you cannot spin the rotor, though it will turn a few degrees against a spring.

Next you will turn the distributor housing until the mark on the housing lines up with the rotor, and install the hold-down bolt finger tight. At that point, look at the pic below to see if you are in the ballpark. At this point the timing is close enough that the car should run -- maybe poorly but it should run nevertheless. You can get the initial setting a lot closer though -- read on.

The pic below shows how my own distributor is clocked. The rotor is pointing pretty much straight forward, perpendicular to the cam belt cover. Note also that the ignition is a few degrees past the trigger point(clockwise rotation). Measuring off of the image I come up with ~7.5°. Since the timing is normally advanced about 8° at idle and the crank is at TDC here, this pic may be used as a reference to set initial timing for startup after distributor R&R.

I believe the WSM says that for an initial setting upon assembly, position the distributor so that the hold-down bolt is in the center of the slot. I have used this approach and the engine will fire but it will be much too far advanced. Most distributors I see are off to the side as in the WSM pic and my pic below. Just make sure you line up the rotor and the mark, set the reluctor(star-shaped piece on the shaft) just past the trigger point, ensure you have plenty of room to adjust the distributor in either direction and it will be within a few degrees of where it needs to be..



I've added the above pic and some of the text to my 16v ignition troubleshooting page to help clarify for future readers.

j.kenzie@sbcglobal.net

Dave,
I notice your adjusting bolt is not near center of slot. I thought that was important.
BTW I really enjoy your webpage.

SharkSkin

Dave, it's important that it be somewhere near the middle, so you have some room to adjust. The fact that the adjustment is at the end of the range is a red flag for me. I probably should have said "nearer to the center". If you look at FO's pic and compare it to mine, the distributor is advanced as far as it can go(bolt at end of slot) and it is not advanced enough(reluctor position). I suggested the middle because the bolt mark on the slot is at the middle, though I can see another mark on the slot at the more typical CCW-of-center location. With all marks lined up and the bolt centered in the slot the engine should at least fire, and will probably run (if poorly).

fomanchu

I just got back from my business trip and finally had some time to address the 928.

I cleaned and reinstalled the plugs and attempted to adjust the timing. I will change the oil tomorrow and attempt to start.

thanks

Ben Allison

Cool - let us know if it fires up