Lizard928

Tony,

An additional air valve is still a needed piece for fairly cold climates like here.

toofast928

So just retain the aux air valve with MS?, Or the whole start circuit.

LH does not use a separate start circuit why should MS?

Lizard928

The valve which he is using here Tony is simply for increasing air at idle to keep the car running.

You can use the AAV with the bi-metallic strip in it and run it with MS not requiring to run it via the start circuit that came in the car.

However the motor he is using will be run by the MS and is controllable at any engine speed.

wildwestsydney

I am using the stepper IAC so I have total control over the idle characteristics. Also, as the MS code develops I will be able to increase idle to accommodate loads on the motor, IE air conditioner, and alternator. I think the MSII extra code already will do this.

The BI metallic strip air valve is fine but why not take advantage of the advanced control of MS.

wildwestsydney

I received all my Edis stuff that I bought off Ebay today. $100 bucks I have a whole edis-8 set up. Nice I will get rid of the distributors and have a much more modern ignition system. Another couple of weeks and I will be starting for the fisrt time.

Warren928

The megasquirt sounds interesting. Damn, the sharktuner has competition, the problem is alot of people will want to stay OEM and John Speake could sell 10 times as many sharktuners if he sold them for 1/3 of the price. Seriously, why charge so much when almost nobody will buy them at that price?

RngTrtl

people will pay for convenience. people will pay alot.

dprantl

I'm hoping the new Sharktuner that is currently in development will be at that price point.

Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft

hacker-pschorr

The MS is very far from plug and play. If you have never built a startup map from scratch, you have no idea what you are in for. The good thing with MS is most users (like Lizard) are more than willing to share their files to help each other get off the ground.

I also fear most people have no clue what it takes to properly tune a car with a base OEM map, much less from scratch (like MS). A recent tuning thread proves this point perfectly.


IMO if the Shark Tuner was too cheap, we would have quite a few blown 928 motors from people who have no business tuning their own car. IMO the Shark Tuner is priced just right to keep it out of the hands of shade-tree tuners. John Speake would have a real mess on his hands if he sold the ST for $500.

Also, the stock knock system on the 87+ cars is a major advantage for the LH system over MS or any other aftermarket ECU.

Everytime I hear about someone "tuning to get the knock out" I bang my head against the wall.


I give a lot of credit to wildwestsydney and Lizard for taking on these projects. Something I'll be doing very shortly with two of my cars. I'll also be hiring a professional engine tuner to oversee and fine tune my ECU's.

Lizard928

Amen Hacker,

I do have to agree with your post. Can almost anyone build and install MS, yes. Should almost anyone, oh probably not.

Building the maps from scratch if you dont know what you are doing or cannot get a map from another user is going to be a PITA, ESP for the IGN, the fueling is easy IMO.
But if you build an ign map with too much advance in spots then you are going to get odd AFR #s and you are going to be bashing your head on the wall.

As well Erik is really correct when he talks about the stock abilities of the S4 + EZK system. They really are great. However I dont like the caps/rotors and moving parts which add to the maintenance and reduce availible spark. However you can run a system like J&S Vampire knock control in conjunction with the MS to "mimik" what the EZK will do.

I do agree that the sharktuner should remain at a higher pricetag, even if I wont buy one at that price, Erik is right it does prevent alot of people who shouldnt be playing with that (esp boosted), from playing with it.

As to the comment of "tuning to get knock out" I stand with Erik on this, and if you dont understand why then I recommend doing some more research on how to tune these engines before continuing!
I have managed to achieve very respectable numbers from my engine (more after my visit to Louie's) without the use of a knock sensor. I use a MILD ign map and spent more time on the fuel map of the car. There is probably alot more to be had in there, but I am not interested in spending the extra time/money to dial in the rest of it. The last 5% takes more time to get than the 95%.

And Erik, if you go this route, I would be more than happy to help get you up and running.

Warren928

Who cares if the 928'er blows his engine because they had a shark tuner handy? The fact is that guys running SC's and FMU's (which is essentially a crutch) trying to get them to not run too rich midrange will be blowing engines left and right when they run them lean on the higher RPM's.

It's the owners fault for not being conservative enough or learning enough before modifying the ECU parameters with a sharktune. Most of these ECU tunes are the same, 1) install big enough injectors to do the job without raising fuel pressure, and 2) adjust pulse width of injectors so it does not run too rich or lean under varying conditions. I have lived and preached this "my bad for going too far" philosophy for decades, having blown a few engines on other vehicles and did not go whining to someone else whom I may have thought was to blame.

hacker-pschorr

Some of us like to be proactive to prevent a fellow 928 owner from destroying their car. Even when most suggestions fall on deaf ears, some of us still try.

I'll let you know when my engine blows, four years and many road trips, track events..... My car doesn't go lean up top and it's not too rich in the midrange.
Same for Tim's personal car(s) and quite a few other customers.
Current kits have the option of going the FMU route or SharkTuned chips. I recommend to everyone the SharkTune route (costs a bit more). I do not have that option with my L-Jet car.

EDIT - just remembered you have a positive displacement blower on your car. That changes things (as you described) with an FMU versus the centrifugal blower the Murf kits uses.


True
However, it is in John's (and every other vendor / reseller) best interest not to be associated with a product that is damaging motors. If this is not obvious to you, there isn't much else any of us can say.

Yup, that's it. Few minutes on the dyno everything is all set.......

I'm going to guess you do not own a business since it's common knowledge among business owners how fast one loud complaining customer or bad testimonial can destory a company or product.

Just ask Audi's legal team in the late 80's about a BS issue that almost put them out of business.


wildwestsydney - sorry.......

John Speake

ST Mk2 will be less expensive than the current model, but not $500 even at the current exchange rate.

MK1 was not "too expensive" taking into account the hundreds of hours in development and the other initial costs. For a limited production run, specialised tool it is "worth" what I charge.

I applaude these pioneers who are applying the Megasquirt to the 928.

Z

I always wonder how many people "fix" a problem by just tuning around it to make the car seem to run better. Vacuum leaks, bad MAF, or other problem causing the car to run lean, idle poorly, and stumble? The conclusion is that the car must need tuning and adding fuel is the fix. An injector dirty or sticking, causing an air/fuel meter to indicate a lean condition? Again, the car must need tuning and more fuel. Bad fuel pressure regulator, damper, O2 sensor, temperature sensor, or wiring problem causing the car to run rich? Must need tuning to lean out the mixture. Think the car should be faster or making more power? It must need tuning and more ignition advance. Just keep advancing until you hear it knock, then back off a degree or two and it'll be perfect. After all, everybody knows that the more the ignition timing is advanced, the more power you always make, right? (No, that's NOT right.)

If somebody wants to do it, and the SharkTuner costs too much for them, they'll just do things like using various ways to manipulate fuel pressure, add resistors to sensors, modify vacuum lines or signals, change the way various electrical components are connected, or remove them completely, etc. The SharkTuner has only been around for a few years. Some of that other stuff has been used on these cars for 30+ years, sometimes by people who knew what they were doing, and sometimes by people who only thought they knew what they were doing. Personally I don't think that pricing the SharkTuner or any other device high, to try to keep it out of the hands of those who don't know what they're doing but think that they do, is going to stop them if they want to play around with the way that the car runs.

I really like the idea of the Megasquirt, and would absolutely have one on a pre-S4 car if I owned one of those. If I had any real experience with the J&S knock control system, to the point that I felt like I could really trust it, I'd be very tempted to use it along with a Megasquirt to replace the S4+ stock system too. On a basicaly stock one, that has all of the stock components working correctly, I don't know if there's too much point in it though.

I just saw this in another thread:
Am I going to have to call Radio Shack in Green Bay and tell them they need to increase the cost of their POTs young man?

wildwestsydney

I know I have a failing MAF so that was the decision maker for me to go the MS route. I have already converted a carburated bike over to ms with good results so I am very confident that i will have a nice drivable 928 when I am done. I am going to get many other benefits with the MS that i do not have currently, stepper idle air control, electric fan control, and edis ignition.

I totally agree that using bandaid tuning method to "fix" a problem is the wrong way to go. Also if you do not know what you are doing when it comes to tuning a motor then do not use a shark tuner or even consider a MS conversion. The only time a car should be tuned is if it is in very good running order to begin with. Factory tuning is fairly conservative so yes there is power to be gained by tuning the ecu. When I said I had a failing MAF and that was the deciding factor to go MS I went this way because a rebuilt MAF is several hundred dollars and I still have to worry about an LH problem. I will convert to MS for around $500-$700 but I will be in total control and have all new sensors and wiring harness. Also I like to do this kind of stuff it is fun for me. I will continue to post my progress on this thread even though it is a little off topic.

Sam