Abby Normal

Mark,

First let me say that I have the utmost respect for you as a driver and a member of this forum. With that being said, the man that stated that to me has worked for Tafel, Farnbacher Loles, Kelley Moss and more PRO Factory sponsored teams than I can even remember. He's worked for YEARS hands on with BOTH cars and through years of development of the RSR. And while I have no doubt the other things mentioned by you and HP are relevant to the performance of the 430, that is what the man said when I asked why the 430 was kicking the RSR' ***. We were specificly talking about the HP numbers from both cars.

I'm not a racer yet Mark and you have years of experience I can only hope to achieve. However the man (John Northcutt) has been involved with Porsche and racing at the highest level for nearly as long as you and I have been alive(I'm guessing you and I are about the same age, I'm 43). Porsche flies this man all over the world to be part of testing and development so I believe he is credible.

Now, I'm not looking for an argument about gearing and what oil to run or none of that. I'll be with John tomorrow so if you would like to argue with him, pm me where to reach you and I'll get you on the line with him.

My post wasn't meant as a be all / end all statement as to why the 430 kicked the RSR's *** 2 years ago. It's just one of the pieces as to why.

Moreso, I truly believe the V8 design is the most proven platform for a racing power plant wether it be Road Race, Off Road racing, Off shore racing, Drag Racing both car and boat etc.. etc.

That was the real point of my post.

mark kibort

Thanks for the complements. As you know, there are as many reasons why cars run the way they do or dont run the way they should, as members of any racing team. No doubt many of the top guys for the pro teams are very smart, but when it comes to this esoteric discusson of HP or Torque, things can get lost in the translation. I know this wasnt ment to start a debate or argument, but many top pros, even guys like David Donahue, who I have had some lengthy discussion with, have even more experienced engieers (who he got involved in some of our discussions too) that get it a little wrong when it comes to this topic. I guess in the end, the real answer IS more torque, but it itsnt because of the V8's greater engine torque, but the greater torque generated at the rear wheels for more of the time. This is result of more power. I think a lot of teams and top motorsports professionals still have a hard time explaining the torque/hp relationship . Even the top rule makers seem to make errors in equalizing classes based on some misconceptions of the basic physics of Race cars and the power and torque they develop on the race track.

I tried to find a simple dyno run of a 430 ferrari, but couldnt find one. Im sure, if you put both of those cars on the dyno, their respective curves would be very close, especially with the gear boxes available. Many drivers, even some top pro ranks dont fully utilize their powerplants. I remember a conversation with Pobst after our race at laguna seca. He gave a couple of reasons why i passed him down the main straight. "all that torque you got was amazing". In actuallity, his BMW GS Rolex race car had an engine that made more hp than mine and was near the same shape as well. Randy is one of the best drivers out there no doubt. But, there are somethings that happen that some folks dont fully understand. I had a better jump off the green. I was also in better part of my hp curve when the green dropped (Gearing), i was on the inside line, less steep part of the track on the inside line, near drafting off the leader, etc etc. I was able to hold him off for near a lap, but a ill handling car, and near equal hp/weight, allowed him to post 1 second a lap faster times so i was just able to keep him in sight after he got by.

The point is, as far as just straightline speed, its all about hp/weight. the close ratio gear boxes are so good now, that they keep their engines at near max hp, whether its I6, flat 6 or a V8. If so, and both cars have the same ave HP, then it doesnt make hill of beans difference if one has more "engine torque" than another. (look at the HP curves above comparing a viper with a porsche GT3RS). The other 20 factors revolve around the driver, setup, chassis configuration, track config, and a host of others. Im sure if you got 5 different top drivers in the porsche, you would get 5 different reasons of why it was able to beat or get beat by the Ferrari.

Racing is such a great sport, because there are so many factors, many of which are dependant on each other. If it was just about HP or Torque, you would just submit a dyno run and they would hand you a trophy.
Its also fun because you can do the post race excuse discussions which last the entire off season! (or between races).

Ill PM you with my number. I would love to chat about this with you or John. I always get kick out of the "real " story when it comes to the cars of most any racing series.


mk

ps I found a Ferrari F430 dyno run.
http://www.dragtimes.com/2006-Ferrar...phs-11185.html
nice thing is both this dyno run and the porsche dyno run are right at near 430rwhp. key point to look at is the shape of the hp curves. now, look at 85% rpm drops at redline for shift points.
Interesting comparison. I have a feeling, that the ALMS GT2 Ferrari 430 has a little more power than this one below. If it did have near the same hp, you can see that any comparison from 7500 to 9000rpm , both cars would be putting down the same HP. certainly very very close. it wouldnt be a reason for one car being faster than another, thats for sure. (unless the porsche driver got caught below 7000rpm where he might be down 15hp for about 500rpms. )

Edit: and by the way, the porsche was fastest at laguna seca in 2007 and this season 2008. low 1:22s this year and 1:23.0 in '07. also, it was faster this year at Road america, but ever so slightly slower in 07. aero would be more apart of that difference I would imagine. Qual times and race times were very close in '07 and in '08. Certainly not a "torque" or even a HP difference.

enjoy the graphs below.

shmark

Then you obviously haven't had one of these part your hair in a full-throttle flyby! 1900hp, 14-cylinder engine, just incredible. And watching those wings fold is pretty amazing, very cool machine.

Abby Normal

Your graphs appear to make the point. At 5000 rpm's there appears to be almost 80 ft lbs of torque difference, in favor of the 430. I think this is what John was referring to. I got your pm. I will see John in a few minutes & will give him your info.

Fabio421

The RS Spyder is V8 powered and there are some teams running the Cayanne V8 in their Daytona prototype cars.

Bill51sdr

Actually, does a P&W R2800 in a P-47D count or perhaps the 28 cylinder double Wasp in an F4U-7 count? Yes they are nice, but nothing even come close to the RR Merlin in the Mustang at low-level WOT. It's like the difference between an air-cooled Harley engine and a Ferrari V-8/12. Just my taste I suppose.

928ntslow

Sorry guys, call me sand in the wax, but I would like to keep on topic. If we can't do that, I will close the thread. If you guys want to split hairs on engine performance and talk about the worlds greatest engines, start another thread. Seriously!

The cars that have and are receiving V8's these days are not by chance. There are valid reasons why and they are NOT necessarily because it is cheaper. Bitch about the F430 all you want, the car is a performance monster based on the reviews. Any of the new cars/super car reviews are not tainted due to the V8 engine, there are transmission, handing and comfort that take a front seat in the less than stellar reviews.

Now, PLEASE stay on topic!

mark kibort

Actually, it makes my point. close ratio gears and driving smartly will put these cars almost perfectly even. any pro driver that is EVER at 5000rpm for any reason, will be near the back of the field, or has just made a poor gear selection. my range at the track, is 4500 to 6500 and never anywhere else.
(and i have wide 928 gears and only a 6600rpm redline ) the rpm drop for the ALMS race car is 80-85% in this range both of the dynos would show that the cars would always have the same accelerative forces. The ferarri and the RSR will be shifting at 9k in race form as well. Their racing operational range is 7300rpm to 9000rpm always.
mk

mark kibort

I think a lot of what goes in to the race cars are supposed to help sell cars in the end. V8s are so much nicer due to the wide hp range on the street.

I think the future is turbo diesels!

And in the end. electric vehicles like the Tesla with IVT's. (or maybe it would only need 2 speeds )

mk

Jim bailey - 928 International

The 90 degree V-8 is a good compromise of size ,width , weight , power, vibration .....BMW M-3 is a great example of what is possible.

mark kibort

when those cars hit the club circuit over the next couple of year, watch out. M3 v8s are going to be REAL fast!

mk

Abby Normal

Sorry to have rained on your parade, it wasn't my intent.