Darklands

Hello,

i had a call with Laso technical support this morning.Laso says the new wp are improved and the impeller is new supported against geting loose.

He says the original pump design from Porsche is a missdesign.The shaft is to thin so the impeller can move because the forces can be to big for the lock.

Another point was the coolant.Old coolant with rust and dirt can destroy the ceramicseals and then the bearings.
Another important point is to glue the bearings and seals in the casting.Without this the pump is relativ fast broken.

Some customers manipulate the impellers for more flow(moving the impeller (casting ->block)) but the distance between block and casting is then to short because the steelshaft has different thermal extension than aluminium.

the call was an interesting technical conversation.i send my pump to Laso for technical examination.

Excuse my bad english.I hope you understood all my descriptions.

/Karsten

JPTL

The technical knowledge, level of commitment and loyalty to a car that's been out of production for 13 years, and the resources on this forum (thanks for the insight Darklands)are truly impressive.
Following threads like this just elevates my appreciation for the 928.
Given the character of these cars and this community, how could anybody consider 'moving on'?

worf928

Lot's of good energy and points for discussion.

Leslie, I will have 2 to 3 water pump cores over the winter. I'm happy to send at least one to yaw'll for rebuilding, testing, destroying, etc. I'm happy to hear that you all are looking at a functionally identical replacement.

I did some back-of-the-spreedsheet numbers when I first posted a few days ago to get an idea of what the "business" of making better pumps looks like. Some of those random numbers:

The best production numbers we have show 5599 87+ and 19506 86- US cars. If you make the following assumptions:
- 75% of the 87+ are still maintained
- 50% of the 86- are still maintained
- a 6 year replacement cycle for water pumps
- 10% penetration of the available market

You are looking at about 70 87+ pumps and about 163 86- pumps per year.

Call it 200 pumps per year. If the build cost is $200 per unit at that volume then a $40k + set-up cost leap of faith is necessary.

Unless it can be engineered so that the pumps can be made cost-effectively and on-demand in 10 to 20 unit batches...

hacker-pschorr

FWIW my 79 is due for a TB / Water pump job and I've been on the fence about doing the pump (its not leaking now......). So as of right now I'm going to wait to see where this goes.

You guys have me all paranoid now. Even though the place I usually buy my parts from locally, has been servicing 928's for over 27 years, has never had a pump they've installed go bad. Either that or the customer(s) who experienced a failed pump never notified him.
Somehow I doubt a customer with a prematurely failed pump wouldn’t call the shop about it.
This shop has one basic rule – they will not install a rebuilt pump on a car with an interference engine.

OBehave

Let me just say that I think that this is great.So many people so passionate about their cars!I'm glad I found a place to fit in I hope.And capitalism is good to.What I would like to point out and don't mean anyone harm in any way is that all this talk about design it this way and I want that and it should be this etc.is a little premature.Conversations between Kevin,Leslie and myself and ideas discussed were just that.Ideas.We have one limiting factor in all this and that is dimensions.The pump is what it is,certain things can be improved upon and some can't because of size limitations.Right now we are at the stage of finding out those limitations.I traveled to NJ from CT on Sunday to pick up some cores and since then have spent time disassembling them and taking measurements and finding out how these things are put together and how to make them better.The origional idea of making a replacement pump that is better was the first priority. All the other bells and whistles are secondary.Until we have determined that there is no way to use existing housings,we will continue down that path,but not abandoning the billet housing idea.The bearing assy.at this point is the deal breaker but until I got all of the constraints that we have to work in we cannot source bearings.I have that info now and we are getting together this weekend to discuss options and meet the bearing company.
As far as money,no one is going to get rich doing this.I,m sure Porken, who I don't know,is not cashing in on the tensioner he developed.Nor do I think he thought he would.I can't and won't speak for him but I have a feeling he loves cars,mechanical things and problem solving.No mechanic that I know of said at one time " I want to fix cars and get rich"It is something that is inside and makes us tick.That said,I am not in this for the money.I want to do this because it intrigues me and I see alot of good coming out of it.Do not misunderstand,I do not work for free,but at this point of the venture it is my hobby and I am willing to devote as much time and money that any one of us would.Either way I'm making at least 5 water pumps.Thanks for listening.
I love this place!

Leslie 928 S2

Well, guys, I'm sorry to report that it looks like Kevin will be backing out of this project due to some libelous remarks posted by Allen Howells (Stylemobile) in his "Rebuttal" thread...

Kevin feels that the trust in his abilities that would be needed to launch such an endeavour has been too severely undermined by the events that transpired here last weekend, and the things that Allen has said about his intentions and actions, and he worries that Allen's attacks and insinuations will ruin the viability of the idea before it even gets to market.

So he has regretfully decided to hand off the idea, and the contact to our bearing guy, to Ed, and allow Ed to run with the idea on his own, if he so chooses.

Thank you all for your encouragement and participation in this discussion.

heinrich

That is BOGUS. So we are all going to not have an improved water pump just because someone said something on a web forum? Wait ... has the school bell rung yet? Break is over!!!

Leslie 928 S2

Heinrich, you just made Kevin smile for almost the first time this week. Thank you!


In answer to your question, no, you still would have gotten the pump. Just not with Kevin involved -- it would have been from Ed.


Anyway, it's good that we're not all a bunch of children. A frantic phone call from Ed put the kibosh on that idea. Ed says he wants Kevin in.

So, if everyone agrees....then Kevin will be going up to Ed's shop tomorrow to work on the pump design and start some other fish to frying. Hopefully we'll have answers to the bearing issues early next week.




To be honest, Kevin would have stayed in, anyway, just not publicly. He would have stayed in the background though to help out, and let Ed do the front work. He wanted to protect the idea, and make sure that everyone got their pumps.


So I guess, as Ed said, they're making a water pump!

ew928

Let the product speak for itself and let the personal sniping to, I don't know what.

If you guys get stuck with the Wasserpump housing fab, there's a guy in Joisey that does metal castings.
He works in Aluminum and Titanium, I think. Tho TI would probably be overkill for this application.

Leslie 928 S2

I'm sure we know exactly who you're talking about.

And if it comes to that, we've already had him in mind for the rescue.


But hey, Ernest, great minds think alike, huh?

RyanPerrella

uh yeah i dont think we need a Ti waterpump housing! HA HA

Pleas continue the work, although at the current rate i am thinking i will make a call to Canada and send any pump i may have there to let that specific shop play with it.

Now i need to check out that other thread and eat some popcorn

the flyin' scotsman

Leslie............why don't you folks talk with Ken; he's BTDT with his inventions and he could perhaps provide the guidance you seek for the grail................sorry waterpump (
Froydiant Python slip).

Go Kevin and Ed.................ask all questions you may have; theres tons for professionals on this List of all discription.

Ryan..............we're waiting for your call: 1-800- Oh-Canada

RyanPerrella

Malcolm,

Did you happen to contact that WP rebuilder that was mentioned in .....what page 6 or 8 or something WAY BACK WHEN?

I need to find that post and get on it. If i have a good Porsche Core i think i may just do that, but i still wanna see where this thread is going. I know Roger is interested in finding a good new solution.

the flyin' scotsman

Ryan................here ya go.

steaditim

I'm due for a Belt change before next spring & I'd be willing to put some cash towards a beta sample if that would help.

Tim