PCA Porsche Parade Concours d’Elegance as it relates to the 928 explained (LONG)
07-04-2008, 01:55 PM
#76
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I used to run our big Concours event every year here (for like 7 years) and I found that to be exactly true! So what I did was:
A. Make the lunch ticket nearly as expensive as the lunch included if you entered your car.
B. All like cars competed against each other...but we didn't have any serious garage queens so all the 28's together, all the early 911's together, etc. Mostly because these are folks that usually run together anyway.
C. Got TONS of donated items that were SUPER COOL! I am talking TONS OF STUFF! To win you had to enter a car! You didn't have to have the nicest car, but you had to ENTER A CAR and then there was a drawing for the best prizes!
SO, the best car WOULD get a small trophy, but the ugliest car entered might actually win the biggest prize! Normally I would have so much donated that every participant would not only take home a COOL goodie bag full of detailing type stuff, but TWO prizes!!!
Last year I handled the event we had nearly 60 cars enter! Keep in mind this is a LOCAL PCA event! We had folks come in from San Antonio, Houston, Dallas! It was freaking AWESOME! A few years the local guy that handles a lot of historic Porsche Racing cars came out and displayed 3-5 of his AWESOME cars! Brought his full on racing rig! It rocked!
It was a TON OF WORK TOO!
A. Make the lunch ticket nearly as expensive as the lunch included if you entered your car.
B. All like cars competed against each other...but we didn't have any serious garage queens so all the 28's together, all the early 911's together, etc. Mostly because these are folks that usually run together anyway.
C. Got TONS of donated items that were SUPER COOL! I am talking TONS OF STUFF! To win you had to enter a car! You didn't have to have the nicest car, but you had to ENTER A CAR and then there was a drawing for the best prizes!
SO, the best car WOULD get a small trophy, but the ugliest car entered might actually win the biggest prize! Normally I would have so much donated that every participant would not only take home a COOL goodie bag full of detailing type stuff, but TWO prizes!!!
Last year I handled the event we had nearly 60 cars enter! Keep in mind this is a LOCAL PCA event! We had folks come in from San Antonio, Houston, Dallas! It was freaking AWESOME! A few years the local guy that handles a lot of historic Porsche Racing cars came out and displayed 3-5 of his AWESOME cars! Brought his full on racing rig! It rocked!
It was a TON OF WORK TOO!
07-05-2008, 12:08 AM
#77
Instructor
Chuck Z: I can only say that I think I understand your predicament since I didn’t attend Charlotte or am I planning to so in the future. You’re not the only ones. In fact, I know a member of the PCA Committee personally and I printed out this thread for him to read. Not surprisingly, he totally agreed with you. You’re not alone. He said there were a few at Charlotte with the same thoughts. He actually knew of this problem for a couple of years now. In September, there’ll be a Committee meeting of which he’ll bring this subject up. He feels that they’ll change and change in time for next year’s Parade. Like you said, more than likely they will split up the “Preservation” class, one for cars like yours with miles yet to be determined then the rest, like the winner.
07-05-2008, 01:05 AM
#78
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I used to belong to PCA but it seemed that 928s were treated like they were from the "wrong side of the tracks". My 968 got more attention for some unknown reason. For me, I didn't perceive much value in membership so I dropped it. Maybe I just happened to hit the wrong events at the wrong time? I know there are fine people in PCA but I'm more comfortable in the 928 neighborhood.
H2
H2
07-05-2008, 01:08 AM
#79
Nordschleife Master
Man I am so thankful for our local PCA group. We have EVERYTHING and most all the ranking leaders have owned or DO own something other than 911's! I was pres/VP for a combined 5 years! Fun times! Concours chair for 7 or 8 years... Needless to say I drug a lot of 928 guys along w/ me so we were VERY WELL represented at events, sometimes the front engine cars out numbered the rears even!
GREAT folks in our group too!
Oh, at Parade the PCA Family of the Year was an older retired couple from our club and our club got first place for our website for clubs of our size! How about that?! When I was Pres we won the membership trophy!
GREAT folks in our group too!
Oh, at Parade the PCA Family of the Year was an older retired couple from our club and our club got first place for our website for clubs of our size! How about that?! When I was Pres we won the membership trophy!
07-05-2008, 05:52 AM
#80
Chuck,
Just saw and read this thread....
I've never seen Kermit in person, and I can't wait to, but I know your attention to detail, and have seen your other cars.... All of the detailed pictures of Kermit show it to be cherry, and I KNOW it is...... I also know of the sweat and effort you put into it and I feel bad for you...... This car deserved much more kudos than it got, and I wholly agree with what Jim said about the "dog show" judges.....
It also sounds like the rules and "judging" applied to the preservation class, somehow leave out low mileage preserved cars..... What is so glaringly obvious to me, is the fact that a preservation class should somehow imply that a car be preserved, and that the rules seem to omit ones so rare as to appear they've been "preserved" in a proverbial bubble..... Perhaps it could be done on a car with higher miles, but they'd most certainly be bordering the restoration class to achieve the same effect with regards to condition, cleanliness and originality...... Then the fact that the preservation class can't compete for overall winner is doubly stupid, IMHO....
Let me see,...... they never gave the car more than a precursory look, and never took judges notes to give you...... I could "judge" a car show of that caliber at my local car wash.... Shame on you, PCA..... And this was the "big" national parade..... People didn't bring their cars there to only be given a precursory look-see by the judges.......I don't blame the 914-6 owner for not bringing his car back.....
Obviously, there were some beautiful cars there, but I also don't think the significance of this car was fully weighed or appreciated...... And I'd feel slighted too.....
It looks like this post and the repercussions thereof may be felt or at least acknowledged by the PCA, and hopefully these glaring loopholes will be closed, so that everyone will have the opportunity to compete and see these examples in the future.....
I guess nothing can be changed about what has already happened, but the whole thing just doesn't pass the smell test.....
I, for one, am appalled that Kermit wasn't put on a rotating pedestal in the middle of the whole big show......
I really would not be surprised in the least if you got a call from the curator of the Porsche museum......
I think it's really that significant, and as Carl suggested, that wild green-colored GT3 would be a fitting replacement......
BTW,...... been researching the "Black Series" (except it's white..
) ........ Two words...... Bad ***
Best,
Just saw and read this thread....
I've never seen Kermit in person, and I can't wait to, but I know your attention to detail, and have seen your other cars.... All of the detailed pictures of Kermit show it to be cherry, and I KNOW it is...... I also know of the sweat and effort you put into it and I feel bad for you...... This car deserved much more kudos than it got, and I wholly agree with what Jim said about the "dog show" judges.....
It also sounds like the rules and "judging" applied to the preservation class, somehow leave out low mileage preserved cars..... What is so glaringly obvious to me, is the fact that a preservation class should somehow imply that a car be preserved, and that the rules seem to omit ones so rare as to appear they've been "preserved" in a proverbial bubble..... Perhaps it could be done on a car with higher miles, but they'd most certainly be bordering the restoration class to achieve the same effect with regards to condition, cleanliness and originality...... Then the fact that the preservation class can't compete for overall winner is doubly stupid, IMHO....
Let me see,...... they never gave the car more than a precursory look, and never took judges notes to give you...... I could "judge" a car show of that caliber at my local car wash.... Shame on you, PCA..... And this was the "big" national parade..... People didn't bring their cars there to only be given a precursory look-see by the judges.......I don't blame the 914-6 owner for not bringing his car back.....
Obviously, there were some beautiful cars there, but I also don't think the significance of this car was fully weighed or appreciated...... And I'd feel slighted too.....
It looks like this post and the repercussions thereof may be felt or at least acknowledged by the PCA, and hopefully these glaring loopholes will be closed, so that everyone will have the opportunity to compete and see these examples in the future.....
I guess nothing can be changed about what has already happened, but the whole thing just doesn't pass the smell test.....
I, for one, am appalled that Kermit wasn't put on a rotating pedestal in the middle of the whole big show......
I really would not be surprised in the least if you got a call from the curator of the Porsche museum......
I think it's really that significant, and as Carl suggested, that wild green-colored GT3 would be a fitting replacement......
BTW,...... been researching the "Black Series" (except it's white..
) ........ Two words...... Bad ***Best,
Last edited by derporsche928; 07-05-2008 at 06:50 AM.
07-05-2008, 02:06 PM
#81
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So Chuck,
Would this new class for undriven low mileage cars have to be eligible for the overall in order for it to be worth the while of the competitor, or would just having a separate class be enough?
Would this new class for undriven low mileage cars have to be eligible for the overall in order for it to be worth the while of the competitor, or would just having a separate class be enough?
07-05-2008, 03:29 PM
#82
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.....or perhaps the cars in Preservation Group get judged like every other division "full and touring" and just remove the penalty for low mileage cars?
07-05-2008, 05:59 PM
#83
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I think it would make the most sense to set up three classes with cars grouped by age and configuration.
Full Concours - cars which are trailored to the show and are either fully restored or original low mileage cars like Chucks. This would IMHO be a level playing field for these types of cars. Everything on these cars are judged.
Street Class - Original Cars which are driven to the show and are driven regularly. Higher mileage is rewarded with bonus points, of course higher mileage will have more wear as well. Wheel wells, top, interior and engine are judged in this class
Modified Street Class - as above but the car can have modifications of any sort.
Wash and Shine - Cars which are driven to the show and driven regularly, interiord and exterior are judged on these cars
I really think the above would cover every kind of car you could possibly imagine and would keep everyone on a level playing feild.
The highest scoring car from the Full Concours & Street Class would be open to winning top honors based on points.
Full Concours - cars which are trailored to the show and are either fully restored or original low mileage cars like Chucks. This would IMHO be a level playing field for these types of cars. Everything on these cars are judged.
Street Class - Original Cars which are driven to the show and are driven regularly. Higher mileage is rewarded with bonus points, of course higher mileage will have more wear as well. Wheel wells, top, interior and engine are judged in this class
Modified Street Class - as above but the car can have modifications of any sort.
Wash and Shine - Cars which are driven to the show and driven regularly, interiord and exterior are judged on these cars
I really think the above would cover every kind of car you could possibly imagine and would keep everyone on a level playing feild.
The highest scoring car from the Full Concours & Street Class would be open to winning top honors based on points.
07-07-2008, 01:33 PM
#84
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07-07-2008, 01:36 PM
#85
Rennlist Member
I think it would make the most sense to set up three classes with cars grouped by age and configuration.
Full Concours - cars which are trailored to the show and are either fully restored or original low mileage cars like Chucks. This would IMHO be a level playing field for these types of cars. Everything on these cars are judged.
Street Class - Original Cars which are driven to the show and are driven regularly. Higher mileage is rewarded with bonus points, of course higher mileage will have more wear as well. Wheel wells, top, interior and engine are judged in this class
Modified Street Class - as above but the car can have modifications of any sort.
Wash and Shine - Cars which are driven to the show and driven regularly, interiord and exterior are judged on these cars
I really think the above would cover every kind of car you could possibly imagine and would keep everyone on a level playing feild.
The highest scoring car from the Full Concours & Street Class would be open to winning top honors based on points.
Full Concours - cars which are trailored to the show and are either fully restored or original low mileage cars like Chucks. This would IMHO be a level playing field for these types of cars. Everything on these cars are judged.
Street Class - Original Cars which are driven to the show and are driven regularly. Higher mileage is rewarded with bonus points, of course higher mileage will have more wear as well. Wheel wells, top, interior and engine are judged in this class
Modified Street Class - as above but the car can have modifications of any sort.
Wash and Shine - Cars which are driven to the show and driven regularly, interiord and exterior are judged on these cars
I really think the above would cover every kind of car you could possibly imagine and would keep everyone on a level playing feild.
The highest scoring car from the Full Concours & Street Class would be open to winning top honors based on points.
07-07-2008, 01:58 PM
#86
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I also realize that you cannot please everyone and PCR’s for Concours events were redone and eliminated the “Manhattan” trophy b/c wealthy PCA’ers were buying brand new cars, having them disassembled, cleaned, put back together then shipped to Parade in hermetically sealed trailers then rolled onto the show field with saran wrap around their tires. There needs to be a happy medium reached between those days and the current PCR’s. Where we are today is definitely not it.
It seems that the big issue is how the overall is decided.
Does anyone really care if a bunch of well-to-do-folks decide to buy a Cayenne Turbo S in parts from the factory and have it professionally assembled at the Parade Concours to take on their neighbor's brand new Cayman that was encased in an air tight bubble off the dealer floor?
Not really right? Let those lunatics have at each other.
From Chuck's posting above, it seems the problem is that when it came to the Overall, that the rules were set up in such a manner that either 1) the judge's hands were tied and they had to award the overall to one of these cars based upon either the point system or other rules restrictions or 2) the judge's would get wow'd by these cars and give them the overall.
I have a hard time believing #2, because a pristine late model just isn't going to knock the socks of any judge like a car like Kermit would, or for that matter a well maintained but not perfect driver.
So, isn't the real issue how to level the playing field for the Overall? How does it work now, do all the cars get a clean slate and are rejudged, or is it based upon their class competition point total?
07-08-2008, 04:18 PM
#87
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Here are some assumptions I'm making, please correct me if I'm wrong:
It seems that the big issue is how the overall is decided.
Does anyone really care if a bunch of well-to-do-folks decide to buy a Cayenne Turbo S in parts from the factory and have it professionally assembled at the Parade Concours to take on their neighbor's brand new Cayman that was encased in an air tight bubble off the dealer floor?
Not really right? Let those lunatics have at each other.
From Chuck's posting above, it seems the problem is that when it came to the Overall, that the rules were set up in such a manner that either 1) the judge's hands were tied and they had to award the overall to one of these cars based upon either the point system or other rules restrictions or 2) the judge's would get wow'd by these cars and give them the overall.
I have a hard time believing #2, because a pristine late model just isn't going to knock the socks of any judge like a car like Kermit would, or for that matter a well maintained but not perfect driver.
So, isn't the real issue how to level the playing field for the Overall? How does it work now, do all the cars get a clean slate and are rejudged, or is it based upon their class competition point total?
It seems that the big issue is how the overall is decided.
Does anyone really care if a bunch of well-to-do-folks decide to buy a Cayenne Turbo S in parts from the factory and have it professionally assembled at the Parade Concours to take on their neighbor's brand new Cayman that was encased in an air tight bubble off the dealer floor?
Not really right? Let those lunatics have at each other.
From Chuck's posting above, it seems the problem is that when it came to the Overall, that the rules were set up in such a manner that either 1) the judge's hands were tied and they had to award the overall to one of these cars based upon either the point system or other rules restrictions or 2) the judge's would get wow'd by these cars and give them the overall.
I have a hard time believing #2, because a pristine late model just isn't going to knock the socks of any judge like a car like Kermit would, or for that matter a well maintained but not perfect driver.
So, isn't the real issue how to level the playing field for the Overall? How does it work now, do all the cars get a clean slate and are rejudged, or is it based upon their class competition point total?
The real issue is how to level the playing field. My wife suggested a "collector's" class? I think adding a "full" and touring" class to the existing Preservation Group and judging cars in the "full" class as any other car in any of the other Groups would be judged so that they could/would be considered for overall honors.
07-08-2008, 07:12 PM
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Chuck,
I have read most, though admittedly not all, of this thread, and felt I needed to respond. As you know, I am a 928GT original owner (1991) and have had the unfortunate experience of having my car next to yours on occation (though not next to Kermit). As a member of the judging team that judged your car at Parade, I must say that the only fault with your car was the low miles. It was by far the nicest 928 in Charlotte (including mine).
As you and others have noted, the emphasis and reason for existence of the Preservation Group is to allow those who utilize their cars to have a place to compete. I am sending a note to the PCR Committee at PCA to re-examine the Group specifications. I have been judging PCA Parade Concours since 2004, and won the Preservation Group with my 928GT at the 2003 Parade in Tampa. My suggestions would be to keep Restoration and Performance as is, but to open Preparation to ANY age car. That would allow a car like yours to compete effectively in the Full Prep (vs Touring Prep). Preservation has fluctuated from cars 10 years old or older (as it was when I won), to 15 years and now 20 years. This needs to be fixed at a particular point and maintained.
As to your scoring sheets, those should have been available to you. I have always received mine in Preservation when I competed, and it is the best way to see where you fell short, and if necessary, is a starting point to protest your result, if necessary.
Please don't give up. You have always had beautifully prepared cars (even if it is embarassing being positioned next to you), and it would be a loss for everyone should you decide to no longer show them. By the way, with 185,000 mile on my GT, I thought you should know that they are a blast to drive ;-)
All the best to you.
Jerry Magolan
I have read most, though admittedly not all, of this thread, and felt I needed to respond. As you know, I am a 928GT original owner (1991) and have had the unfortunate experience of having my car next to yours on occation (though not next to Kermit). As a member of the judging team that judged your car at Parade, I must say that the only fault with your car was the low miles. It was by far the nicest 928 in Charlotte (including mine).
As you and others have noted, the emphasis and reason for existence of the Preservation Group is to allow those who utilize their cars to have a place to compete. I am sending a note to the PCR Committee at PCA to re-examine the Group specifications. I have been judging PCA Parade Concours since 2004, and won the Preservation Group with my 928GT at the 2003 Parade in Tampa. My suggestions would be to keep Restoration and Performance as is, but to open Preparation to ANY age car. That would allow a car like yours to compete effectively in the Full Prep (vs Touring Prep). Preservation has fluctuated from cars 10 years old or older (as it was when I won), to 15 years and now 20 years. This needs to be fixed at a particular point and maintained.
As to your scoring sheets, those should have been available to you. I have always received mine in Preservation when I competed, and it is the best way to see where you fell short, and if necessary, is a starting point to protest your result, if necessary.
Please don't give up. You have always had beautifully prepared cars (even if it is embarassing being positioned next to you), and it would be a loss for everyone should you decide to no longer show them. By the way, with 185,000 mile on my GT, I thought you should know that they are a blast to drive ;-)
All the best to you.
Jerry Magolan
07-08-2008, 10:38 PM
#90
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Hi Chuck,
I have read this thread with great interest and agree that changes need to be made to the PCR's regarding the Concours categories to accomodate cars like yours. I had this discussion with Mike Lommatzsch, the Parade Competition Rules (PCR) Chair, and he agreed that adjustments need to be made. Since you are most familiar with this issue, and are obviously passionate about it, I would suggest that you contact Mike after all of the dust has settled and discuss it with him.
I kind of cracked up when you were talking about the placement of the 928's at the Concours. The 914 and the 356's folks generally have the same views so that's why we put them upfront and center this year to let them know that they were not second class citizens. I guess I will have to ask Colorado to do the same with 928's next year! BTW - I think everyone that owns something other than a 911 feels that way sometimes, however I have never figured out why.
You know that personally I have owned a 356, a 928, two Boxsters, etc. I have never felt discriminated against. Hell, Bob Saville, current Carolinas Region President, has four 914's! Talk about the redheaded step-children of Porschedom!
Regardless ... the bottomline is that at the end of the day we are all gearheads and have a passion for these cars.
BTW - I gave you and Tina well deserved kudos during my Victory Banquet speech for your irreplaceable contributions to the Carolinas Region (i.e. your leadership and putting together PorscheFest). Those were the building blocks for putting this event together.
Talk to you soon!
I have read this thread with great interest and agree that changes need to be made to the PCR's regarding the Concours categories to accomodate cars like yours. I had this discussion with Mike Lommatzsch, the Parade Competition Rules (PCR) Chair, and he agreed that adjustments need to be made. Since you are most familiar with this issue, and are obviously passionate about it, I would suggest that you contact Mike after all of the dust has settled and discuss it with him.
I kind of cracked up when you were talking about the placement of the 928's at the Concours. The 914 and the 356's folks generally have the same views so that's why we put them upfront and center this year to let them know that they were not second class citizens. I guess I will have to ask Colorado to do the same with 928's next year! BTW - I think everyone that owns something other than a 911 feels that way sometimes, however I have never figured out why.
You know that personally I have owned a 356, a 928, two Boxsters, etc. I have never felt discriminated against. Hell, Bob Saville, current Carolinas Region President, has four 914's! Talk about the redheaded step-children of Porschedom!
Regardless ... the bottomline is that at the end of the day we are all gearheads and have a passion for these cars.
BTW - I gave you and Tina well deserved kudos during my Victory Banquet speech for your irreplaceable contributions to the Carolinas Region (i.e. your leadership and putting together PorscheFest). Those were the building blocks for putting this event together.
Talk to you soon!