bronto

I'll defer to you on the definitions and purposes of the club; I'm only writing from recent/local impressions.

I agree with that 100%. Kermit is the cream and I'm bummed you didn't win the whole thing.

Chuck Z

Thanks. The reality of the situation is no matter what PCA does with the PCR's (Parade Competition Rules) it is unlikely a 928 will ever win top honors (where mileage is not a heavy consideration) and with the current crop of PCA concours judges this is especially true..... It is a common belief still that anything other than a 356 or air cooled 911 is not a Porsche. All you had to do to see this at the Charlotte Parade is notice where the 928s were positioned! I think Jim said it best in an earlier post.

IcemanG17

Chuck
The classes are what they are....& far from perfect....one thing I have found in PCA concours locally (Zone 7) is that knowing the specifics of your class and exactly what is a deduction and what isn't is EVERYTHING..... I have beat other P-cars that I felt were far nicer than mine, but weren't prepared as well by their owners.....it all comes down to what "dirt" the judges find.... Its a game just like anything else....& to win you need to think like the judges.....

With that said Kermit is one of the finest 928's around...period.... but "losing" to a more seasoned competitor isn't really an indication of kermits condition....its just that you might have missed a couple super small details that the other guy found..... I have no doubts that you can & will win your class at parade again....which just a few pointers from some hardcore concours judges-competitors... 2nd place for your 1st showing is VERY good!!

Chuck Z

Brian, as you know this was NOT my first time out. I didn't miss anything when it came to cleaning/prepping my car. I pretty much know ALL the tricks........ I have been doinig PCA concours events for ~15 years and even judged a few. I am pretty versed in how to prepare a car for these events.

FYI, PCA "Preservation" is basically a "hands off" by the judges type of judging. They didn't lay a hand on my car and like all cars in this class was done as a group by the judges. Fact is, cleanliness and originality had little to do with which car won this event.

AO

Chuck-

I've only entered into one concours in my life - it was a '66 Jag E-type. Didn't know what I was getting into. Got 92 points. 4 points for having the wrong clamps, and 2 point for chrome instead of polished aluminum, and I think 2 for cleanliness. Anyway, when it was all done, I got a copy of the scoring sheet. Does PCA do something similar? If so, can you tell us specifically where you received your points off? Was it only for mileage?

Chuck Z

In every other group/class/division at Parade I am told you get your judging sheets EXCEPT in Preservation group. Every other concours I've ever participated in gives you your judging sheets back except this one...... This way, no justification has to be made? Starting to see where my frustration comes from?

.....yes, which in the judges eyes translates to use, or not?

AO

Okay... you've convinced me Chuck.

I call BS!

Chuck Z

Your too easy! And cheap I hear.........

pcar928fan

Here is my view and like Chuck, I have participated in Concours events for more than 10 years, have run, and have judged several myself... I don't know all the tricks yet, I am still learning, but I really enjoy having a nearly perfect car, though mine never are. When you are in a wheelchair and have to rely on others to get certain things done, you can't expect perfection (unless I could get Chuck down here to work in my cars with me...then he could teach me all the tricks too!)

I think these should be the classes:

Preservation: Cars like Kermit that are basically undriven and perfect in virtually EVERY WAY...maybe limited to 10 or 15+ year old cars...

Unrestored: Cars that have been driven, prepared to the best the car can be, bonus points given for miles since last show (yes, it would be hard to do that, but if you have 50k miles on the car make it SUPER CLEAN over a year or two and then you show it again a year later and only have 51k miles, the thing is not being driven and thus does not get driving points). Cars need not be completely stock. Touring and Full classes.

Restored: Must be stock, but everything could be replaced completely...new paint, new interior, whatever you want... Open to older cars...maybe 20+ years old...

Then there could be a few more classes...but I am blanking on the ones I was thinking about...I'll edit this later as I remember them...

AO

Watch it! You still have a couple of cars I have not... how should I put it... caressed yet!

Jon B.

Dude, you need a C5! Or maybe a new Project 928. Something with FI, and all the goodies!

Jon B.

Hey now, you do just fine when you prep a car. I only used to help out getting them to where you'd sign off on it for an event, and it was never that much work!

IcemanG17

Chuck
I know you are far from a concours rookie.....that wasn't the intent of my comments....BUT the scoring for Parade is quite a bit different than for my zone....this was a major factor in why I didn't go to San Diego last year....

The classes don't really "fit" a 928 like kermit..... It really needs to be in a "full" concours class.... where absolutely everything, especially including original accessories and paperwork are judged...this is an area where kermit would shine far more than other 928's.... How many other 928's out there are as perfectly original as kermit down to the tires.....& the "car of the year" window sticker??? Even the recent barn find 928 isn't as complete as kermit...& it does have more than twice the mileage too!!

As for the judges NOT giving you a score sheet???? Thats not right...how can you know where to improve the car?? (not like kermit needs it, but you get my point)

atb

I'd like to hear some discussion regarding what kind of classification/judging criteria would benefit cars like Kermit and their owners. I just received an email from Mike Lommatzsch, PCR Committee Chairman, acknowledging receipt of my inquiry, and stating that we'll have a discussion after he gets back from the Parade. I sent the same email to Vu Nguyen, who has been very open to discussion with me on past issues, and would include him in on any discussions.
I'd be happy to take any ideas to them regarding Chuck's concerns. I think his points are absolutely legitimate. The thought of discouraging the showing of cars preserved in this manner is ludicrous.
My problem is that I have no experience with Concours, and don't know the history of it with PCA, (basically what circumstances they are trying to avoid by invoking the current rules).
If you can help me to make a thorough presentation by addressing the key concerns, and solutions to those concerns, maybe we can get the issue resolved.

pcar928fan

Jon,

Didn't know you were lurking here! You were/are my TOP MAN! You get all the stuff I can't reach and then some and do a damn fine job with all of it! As you know from your trip down to get the C5 the upper reaches of my cars have been neglected for far to long! You need to get your butt back down here to Austin I need the help!

Love you man!