Bullet dodging
11-02-2002, 11:28 AM
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Bullet dodging
Checking to see if this is coincidence or not.
Just finished a coolant and t-stat change. Using the recommended (Nichols) flush method; all went well and water ran crap-free.
After burpin', went out for a spin. Everything is fine, until suddenly she starts to sound and feel like she's choking.
At home, everything seems fine until I notice the steam rising from the left t-belt vent hole. Don't have her apart yet, but it looks, sounds, and feels to me like a leaky and/or seized(ing) water pump caused me to jump a tooth or two.
Question - I can't think of a reason that the coolant change would "cause" this. Can anyone?
Thx.,
James, perhaps adding more fuel to the "interference vs. non-interference" debate.
Just finished a coolant and t-stat change. Using the recommended (Nichols) flush method; all went well and water ran crap-free.
After burpin', went out for a spin. Everything is fine, until suddenly she starts to sound and feel like she's choking.
At home, everything seems fine until I notice the steam rising from the left t-belt vent hole. Don't have her apart yet, but it looks, sounds, and feels to me like a leaky and/or seized(ing) water pump caused me to jump a tooth or two.
Question - I can't think of a reason that the coolant change would "cause" this. Can anyone?
Thx.,
James, perhaps adding more fuel to the "interference vs. non-interference" debate.
11-02-2002, 11:46 AM
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Uh oh...
Sounds as though your water pump is history. Can't think of a reason why a coolant change would initiate this failure.
Have you manually positioned the crank/cams for observation of the proper mark alignment yet?
Is it possible that maybe you've gotten coolant in there by accident (i.e. spillage, hose leakage, etc.)?
keep us posted.....
<img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
Sounds as though your water pump is history. Can't think of a reason why a coolant change would initiate this failure.
Have you manually positioned the crank/cams for observation of the proper mark alignment yet?
Is it possible that maybe you've gotten coolant in there by accident (i.e. spillage, hose leakage, etc.)?
keep us posted.....
<img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
11-02-2002, 03:15 PM
#3
Jay,
Along this line...
I have finally started the much needed engine and bay clean up you so adroitly recommended last summer.
Will start clipping bad connectors and swapping them out -one by one, still worried about changing an impedance value here and there-.
While cleaning things up -first pass- I noticed something that should have been obvious at the SITO event and again when I finally changed the drilled thermostat (I think that was a really rare piece of engineering for a 928 roadside repair, thanks again to all hands <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> )
Basically, there is a 1 sq. inch hole in the front and top of the driverside belt cover.
Oddly, no problems till last week.
We have had a cold drizzle snap for about 2 1/2 weeks and Pattycakes was experiencing a longer than normal warm-up period and a pronounced bog on acceleration.
I think she jumped a tooth or two as this problem goes away if I loosen and adjust the distributor.
Fear not, no clanking or new and terrible noises.
And 'She Is Parked' till a new water pump, belts,Idler bearings etc. arrive and the work begins. This lends a lot of credence to moisture and in James Erdmann's case glycol contaminants doing a bit of harm.
BTW Did you notice the hole in my cover...Brett, Dave? I don't think I could have missed it but there is no evidence of the PO gluing it back together and I did zero maintenance in this area to cause breakage.
P.S. Pattycakes was lightly tagged on the right rear - quarter - this time .
Another nudge and run...the Bastages!!! <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
later
John S. and a hibernating Pattycakes.
Along this line...
I have finally started the much needed engine and bay clean up you so adroitly recommended last summer.
Will start clipping bad connectors and swapping them out -one by one, still worried about changing an impedance value here and there-.
While cleaning things up -first pass- I noticed something that should have been obvious at the SITO event and again when I finally changed the drilled thermostat (I think that was a really rare piece of engineering for a 928 roadside repair, thanks again to all hands <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> )
Basically, there is a 1 sq. inch hole in the front and top of the driverside belt cover.
Oddly, no problems till last week.
We have had a cold drizzle snap for about 2 1/2 weeks and Pattycakes was experiencing a longer than normal warm-up period and a pronounced bog on acceleration.
I think she jumped a tooth or two as this problem goes away if I loosen and adjust the distributor.
Fear not, no clanking or new and terrible noises.
And 'She Is Parked' till a new water pump, belts,Idler bearings etc. arrive and the work begins. This lends a lot of credence to moisture and in James Erdmann's case glycol contaminants doing a bit of harm.
BTW Did you notice the hole in my cover...Brett, Dave? I don't think I could have missed it but there is no evidence of the PO gluing it back together and I did zero maintenance in this area to cause breakage.
P.S. Pattycakes was lightly tagged on the right rear - quarter - this time .
Another nudge and run...the Bastages!!! <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
later
John S. and a hibernating Pattycakes.
11-03-2002, 03:58 PM
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The answer to the timing question is...I don't know. I'm certain it's skipped.
The belt is *floppy* from cam to cam and is missing 1/4" sections of teeth at irregular intervals.
I have experienced NO valve damage (that I can find) or piston-fighting-valve bad noises, just a loss of power. Pulled the intake runners just to be sure and the intake valves, at lease, are still sitting proudly and straight.
I, however, cannot find the cam timing marks on the gears, so until I get the flywheel lock tool and follow procedure to free-wheel the cams, I can't answer for certain.
*whew* it could be worse. I was about to go back to Chicago today in her.
And I get no credit for paying attention. 2wks ago I heard a nasty whine at startup, which I presumed to be my troublesome A/C compressor. Apparently not...
The belt is *floppy* from cam to cam and is missing 1/4" sections of teeth at irregular intervals.
I have experienced NO valve damage (that I can find) or piston-fighting-valve bad noises, just a loss of power. Pulled the intake runners just to be sure and the intake valves, at lease, are still sitting proudly and straight.
I, however, cannot find the cam timing marks on the gears, so until I get the flywheel lock tool and follow procedure to free-wheel the cams, I can't answer for certain.
*whew* it could be worse. I was about to go back to Chicago today in her.
And I get no credit for paying attention. 2wks ago I heard a nasty whine at startup, which I presumed to be my troublesome A/C compressor. Apparently not...
11-30-2002, 09:15 PM
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The Thanksgiving battle is won! T-belt, all front seals, AND the motor mounts. Runs better by far than it has since I bought it.
I'd like to thank the academy...actually, thanks to Wally, Thom, John P., Tony, Dave and Jeannie Roberts for da quick parts, and anyone else who has ever posted a t-belt answer or procedure. Couldn't have done it without all of you. (Oh, and to Jay K. for his cool belt tool).
And thanks to my girlfriend for watching tv patiently while I ran in and celebrated stupid little victories.
*I feel like I earned my 928 merit badge*
I'd like to thank the academy...actually, thanks to Wally, Thom, John P., Tony, Dave and Jeannie Roberts for da quick parts, and anyone else who has ever posted a t-belt answer or procedure. Couldn't have done it without all of you. (Oh, and to Jay K. for his cool belt tool).
And thanks to my girlfriend for watching tv patiently while I ran in and celebrated stupid little victories.
*I feel like I earned my 928 merit badge*
11-30-2002, 10:18 PM
#7
James,
Good news.
Another Owner, Renn, Big Three story with a happy
ending.
How much:
In dollars or euro's?
Time consumed?
Blood loss?
Did you take any flicks?
Do the notebook checklist when disassembling?
Find a better way to do any of the repairs?
When I do mine: I plan on going the digital camera route. Hope Randy and others can get me loaded on the net or perhaps I can 'disc it'
and have Tony 'Vegas Baby" load to his site for future.
As it turns out, T belt ... is not/was not my problem.
Everything lined up, belt ok, (thank God), continued cleaning.
Pulled air cleaner, AFM, cleaned all rubber & plastic. Replaced a variety of vacuum lines, replaced plugs, adjusted cables- again ... .
Vac'd & cleaned everything in reach.
My problem is not so much a 'bog' as a painfully long pause before the engine decides to generate some power. Going on a run tomorrow if no joy...will put distributor back at original advance.
Only oddity was that small puddle of oil at the air inlet base behind AFM -inside-. Fourth time I've been here, first time appearance of the oil.
Again, Glad things worked out
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Good news.
Another Owner, Renn, Big Three story with a happy
ending.
How much:
In dollars or euro's?
Time consumed?
Blood loss?
Did you take any flicks?
Do the notebook checklist when disassembling?
Find a better way to do any of the repairs?
When I do mine: I plan on going the digital camera route. Hope Randy and others can get me loaded on the net or perhaps I can 'disc it'
and have Tony 'Vegas Baby" load to his site for future.
As it turns out, T belt ... is not/was not my problem.
Everything lined up, belt ok, (thank God), continued cleaning.
Pulled air cleaner, AFM, cleaned all rubber & plastic. Replaced a variety of vacuum lines, replaced plugs, adjusted cables- again ... .
Vac'd & cleaned everything in reach.
My problem is not so much a 'bog' as a painfully long pause before the engine decides to generate some power. Going on a run tomorrow if no joy...will put distributor back at original advance.
Only oddity was that small puddle of oil at the air inlet base behind AFM -inside-. Fourth time I've been here, first time appearance of the oil.
Again, Glad things worked out
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
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12-01-2002, 12:15 AM
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Elapsed time - 23 hours, not including the quickie rip-and-tear job when the belt slipped and I dug in to determine how fatal or not it had been.
The belt had slipped 5-8 teeth. I hereby declare that the US (low-compression) M28/19 engines are non-interference, despite debate to the contrary. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> I have accidentally verified this theorem. Water pump sounded like millstones grinding flour when the pulley was turned. Tensioner had disgorged both its oil and the majority of the boot long, long ago. I should have been paying more attention to the increasing noise coming from the engine bay, but it was very gradual.
John, I felt that taking notes would be a little redundant given the high quality of what is available on-line right now. I did glean a few insights, though, that I would add to the material.
Most importantly: if it's been a long time since this job was done, or if the old bolts were reused during the previous t-belt change - GET ALL NEW BOLTS! Old bolts shear, strip, cause bad things to happen to you and yours. Order the special sizes/shapes when you get the other parts. Of note: the shoulder bolt that holds the pulley in place. The snapping shoulder bolt caused the only blood of the whole ordeal.
Second most important - torque gently and only to what is sufficient. Obey the specs or pay the price.
Third most important - beer.
Fourth - take it very easy with the plastic shrouds! JB Weld is NOT your friend, or at least not when you want to be quick and clean about it.
Fifth - make sure you get the thrust washers on the right way if you remove the crank pulley gear. Flanges away from the belt, or you'll shred it. Tolerances are tight in there.
Sixth - Wally P's tip for wheel bearing installation (chill the bearing, heat the carrier) works well for gear installation also. Since the car was already at 18 degrees F (did I mention I did this in Minnesota in an unheated garage?), heating the gear in the oven to a moderate temp made reinstallation quite simple. Don't use cast iron temps for aluminum gears, though...
Dollars? Lemmeesee...for pump/belt/crank and oil pump seals/tensioner rebuild stuff/mounts/fluids/tension tool and flywheel lock/misc. bolts to replace the old ones/new tools (gear pullers), around $900.00. Including misc. other crap, like the alternator shroud seal, new 75 degree fan switch, new t-stat & o-ring, etc. Used the Anchor mounts; we'll see how THAT goes. Not too bad; found the Anchor mounts for @ 34.00/each.
Had to wage war with the far-right bolt on the steering-rack cover plate; the fitting in the crossmember sheared requiring bolt cutting. Dremeled through about 15 cutoff discs but she finally came out; smooth from there.
Also snapped the shoulder bolt that holds the tensioner pulley. They can be found at 6:30 on a Friday night!
The seals are very easy to replace and highly recommended as a WYAIT repair. Cured a persistant minor leak above the oil pan.
The t-belt job is easy if you take your time and think about what you are doing. And the joy upon turning the key and having it come to life smoother, quieter, and more easily-revving is one of life's finer pleasures.
The belt had slipped 5-8 teeth. I hereby declare that the US (low-compression) M28/19 engines are non-interference, despite debate to the contrary. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> I have accidentally verified this theorem. Water pump sounded like millstones grinding flour when the pulley was turned. Tensioner had disgorged both its oil and the majority of the boot long, long ago. I should have been paying more attention to the increasing noise coming from the engine bay, but it was very gradual.
John, I felt that taking notes would be a little redundant given the high quality of what is available on-line right now. I did glean a few insights, though, that I would add to the material.
Most importantly: if it's been a long time since this job was done, or if the old bolts were reused during the previous t-belt change - GET ALL NEW BOLTS! Old bolts shear, strip, cause bad things to happen to you and yours. Order the special sizes/shapes when you get the other parts. Of note: the shoulder bolt that holds the pulley in place. The snapping shoulder bolt caused the only blood of the whole ordeal.
Second most important - torque gently and only to what is sufficient. Obey the specs or pay the price.
Third most important - beer.
Fourth - take it very easy with the plastic shrouds! JB Weld is NOT your friend, or at least not when you want to be quick and clean about it.
Fifth - make sure you get the thrust washers on the right way if you remove the crank pulley gear. Flanges away from the belt, or you'll shred it. Tolerances are tight in there.
Sixth - Wally P's tip for wheel bearing installation (chill the bearing, heat the carrier) works well for gear installation also. Since the car was already at 18 degrees F (did I mention I did this in Minnesota in an unheated garage?), heating the gear in the oven to a moderate temp made reinstallation quite simple. Don't use cast iron temps for aluminum gears, though...
Dollars? Lemmeesee...for pump/belt/crank and oil pump seals/tensioner rebuild stuff/mounts/fluids/tension tool and flywheel lock/misc. bolts to replace the old ones/new tools (gear pullers), around $900.00. Including misc. other crap, like the alternator shroud seal, new 75 degree fan switch, new t-stat & o-ring, etc. Used the Anchor mounts; we'll see how THAT goes. Not too bad; found the Anchor mounts for @ 34.00/each.
Had to wage war with the far-right bolt on the steering-rack cover plate; the fitting in the crossmember sheared requiring bolt cutting. Dremeled through about 15 cutoff discs but she finally came out; smooth from there.
Also snapped the shoulder bolt that holds the tensioner pulley. They can be found at 6:30 on a Friday night!
The seals are very easy to replace and highly recommended as a WYAIT repair. Cured a persistant minor leak above the oil pan.
The t-belt job is easy if you take your time and think about what you are doing. And the joy upon turning the key and having it come to life smoother, quieter, and more easily-revving is one of life's finer pleasures.
12-01-2002, 12:28 AM
#9
John,
The oil is common, especially after a spirited run, or it could be from the timing change. I would definitely change the timing back to spec.
Concerning the hole in the cover, it most probably was done externally. I shattered the bottom cover on the last TB disassembly of the black euro. One more hole (if not structural) will just allow more cooling of the TB area.
Dennis
The oil is common, especially after a spirited run, or it could be from the timing change. I would definitely change the timing back to spec.
Concerning the hole in the cover, it most probably was done externally. I shattered the bottom cover on the last TB disassembly of the black euro. One more hole (if not structural) will just allow more cooling of the TB area.
Dennis
12-01-2002, 01:02 AM
#10
Dennis,
Thanks for assauging (or trying to) my fears about 'the hole'. Unfortunately, the darned thing goes across the skinny flat and around the front.
Which might be the worst of both worlds for collecting fluids and road grime. I just cleaned it up this afternoon with paint thinner and acetone. Then cut and formed a a piece of aluminum chimmney flashing. Taped off the area epoxied in place, silicone overlap by 1/8" on patch & cover -outside- just in case the epoxy vibrates loose and tries to launch thru something important. Since I was repainting the Tower Brace anyway primer and paint were on hand.
Yeah, I'll do a before and after seat of the pants tomorrow, set timing back to initial scribe marks as well as use the timing light.
I'm hoping that's it, if not ... out with the multimeter and check the injector loom front to back <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
How's the new P car we haven't got a report here on the 928 board. You haven't been slumming have you? <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
Jeez, Dennis. You figuring on turning into a general Porsche mechanic. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Thanks for assauging (or trying to) my fears about 'the hole'. Unfortunately, the darned thing goes across the skinny flat and around the front.
Which might be the worst of both worlds for collecting fluids and road grime. I just cleaned it up this afternoon with paint thinner and acetone. Then cut and formed a a piece of aluminum chimmney flashing. Taped off the area epoxied in place, silicone overlap by 1/8" on patch & cover -outside- just in case the epoxy vibrates loose and tries to launch thru something important. Since I was repainting the Tower Brace anyway primer and paint were on hand.
Yeah, I'll do a before and after seat of the pants tomorrow, set timing back to initial scribe marks as well as use the timing light.
I'm hoping that's it, if not ... out with the multimeter and check the injector loom front to back <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
How's the new P car we haven't got a report here on the 928 board. You haven't been slumming have you? <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
Jeez, Dennis. You figuring on turning into a general Porsche mechanic.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
12-01-2002, 10:27 AM
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James,
Congratulations! Definitely a Merit Badge with Oak Leaf Clusters.
Sounds like $2500 - 3000 in repairs at the dealer, but perhaps with a better chance that you did them correctly, with no little surprises hidden away.
Congratulations! Definitely a Merit Badge with Oak Leaf Clusters.
Sounds like $2500 - 3000 in repairs at the dealer, but perhaps with a better chance that you did them correctly, with no little surprises hidden away.
12-01-2002, 12:52 PM
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Congratulations Guru John! Hey, Randy how about gifting Wally a free 10,000 posts as he is still a humble Senior User! <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
Cheers
DaveW
Cheers
DaveW
12-01-2002, 01:10 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by DaveW:
<strong>Hey, Randy how about gifting Wally a free 10,000 posts as he is still a humble Senior User! </strong><hr></blockquote>
Senior in more ways than one <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> !
Wally doesn't post much, but when he does, we listen.
<strong>Hey, Randy how about gifting Wally a free 10,000 posts as he is still a humble Senior User! </strong><hr></blockquote>
Senior in more ways than one <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> !
Wally doesn't post much, but when he does, we listen.