Old magazines and the 928...
03-26-2003, 12:51 AM
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Old magazines and the 928...
I received an old Motor Trend magazine for my 928 literature collection today, and as I was browsing though it I was reminded how different the 928 was when it was introduced.
It made me wonder, if the 928 was sooo far ahead of everything else, or if everything else was just so far backwards. But I wonder even more, how the other manufacturers survived with their old fashioned cars.
You would think that if a new trend is obvious, everything else depreciates like crazy, as people anticipate the new trend to take over even in other market segments (and it did, eventually).
I think I would have refused to buy any of those "other" cars (except maybe a 924) until they at least somewhat caught up with the times.
But maybe buyers didn't see it that way at the time. I wasn't in the US then...
It made me wonder, if the 928 was sooo far ahead of everything else, or if everything else was just so far backwards. But I wonder even more, how the other manufacturers survived with their old fashioned cars.
You would think that if a new trend is obvious, everything else depreciates like crazy, as people anticipate the new trend to take over even in other market segments (and it did, eventually).
I think I would have refused to buy any of those "other" cars (except maybe a 924) until they at least somewhat caught up with the times.
But maybe buyers didn't see it that way at the time. I wasn't in the US then...
03-26-2003, 01:08 AM
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I wonder what the proportion of automatics was for the rest of the world? IMHO It seems to me that, at least in the US, the 928 quickly evolved into the Porsche for those who wanted the cachet of a Porsche, but who were not really into the driving experience.
I think that those of us who own them now are the market segment Porsche originally needed if the 928 was going to make it.
I think that those of us who own them now are the market segment Porsche originally needed if the 928 was going to make it.
03-26-2003, 02:19 AM
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Example of an ad in the same magazine:
"The New Zwphyr EX Type. Think German. Think Italian. Think British. Then Think $4072."
Then it goes off into the styling features with black-out treatment, black cowl grille and styled wheel covers for a 'stunning clean look'. WHOA!
And it's more spacious than a Rolls Royce! Get this: You spend only $4072 and you get MORE than your boss with the Rolls Royce. It must be the deal of the century!
Or maybe you better not think at all...?
The Gremlin claims that if you want it any racier, you have to paint a number on the door. That easy? Gimme the brush, please!
A few pages later we see the Mercedes 450 SEL with a "wax job your eyes may never see" (how about one my eyebrows will never feel?) - 2 agile tons with almost 5 feet of hip room! Hey, I can finally eat the cake all by myself!
A Road test of the Dodge Magnum XE shows Detroit's high tech of the time, with "exceptionally wide choice of colors and trim combinations". Yes, would you like "colonial", "federal, or "corinthian" style? Hmmm....
And Oldsmobile asks "Can we build one for you?" Hell no, please don't!!! Or do I look like I'm a grandmother??? ;-)
As you can see, I'm having fun with the old magazine. It's like history, with a little present (928) mixed in.
"The New Zwphyr EX Type. Think German. Think Italian. Think British. Then Think $4072."
Then it goes off into the styling features with black-out treatment, black cowl grille and styled wheel covers for a 'stunning clean look'. WHOA!
And it's more spacious than a Rolls Royce! Get this: You spend only $4072 and you get MORE than your boss with the Rolls Royce. It must be the deal of the century!
Or maybe you better not think at all...?
The Gremlin claims that if you want it any racier, you have to paint a number on the door. That easy? Gimme the brush, please!
A few pages later we see the Mercedes 450 SEL with a "wax job your eyes may never see" (how about one my eyebrows will never feel?) - 2 agile tons with almost 5 feet of hip room! Hey, I can finally eat the cake all by myself!
A Road test of the Dodge Magnum XE shows Detroit's high tech of the time, with "exceptionally wide choice of colors and trim combinations". Yes, would you like "colonial", "federal, or "corinthian" style? Hmmm....
And Oldsmobile asks "Can we build one for you?" Hell no, please don't!!! Or do I look like I'm a grandmother??? ;-)
As you can see, I'm having fun with the old magazine. It's like history, with a little present (928) mixed in.
03-26-2003, 01:35 PM
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Nicole: I think what you are describing here is either in retrospect or actuality a comment on the basically unsophisticated (US) market. I mean, the Gremlin??? Spending $$ for Gremlin advertising was an act of desperation by some executive trying to save his rear. But then Vietnam gave me very good bull**** detector.
03-26-2003, 06:48 PM
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Hey Nicole, cool little time capsule there!
Ernest: The 928 was never the car for people who wanted the cachet. It was too expensive (my '83 listed out near $50K, pretty big change even 20 years later. And that's ten times as much as the car in Nicole's ad!) No, the cachet car was the cheaper 924 and later the 944. I'm not beating up 924 or 944 folks here and am not saying all or even most bought the car for the name alone... but there was definitely a market segment of buyers who went for the name.
The 928 was the car for the Mercedes driver who thought the 928 would be more or less interchangeable but more sporty. Wrong! And that was the eternal dilemma of the 928: Do we go more pure sportscar and oust the 911, or go more luxury and oust Mercedes? The 928 was perpetually caught in the middle.
Interestingly, I drove a GTS for the first time a coupla months ago. It was a '93 auto. My impression was that Porsche had finally aimed squarely at the SL type of market: The car was very quiet, plush, and had very calm road manners. You could barely hear the exhaust(!) A huge difference from the more raw character of every 928 that preceded it.
Nicole, interesting comment about the car being ahead of its time... and question why it didn't take off more (at least relative to other cars). I have three observations. First, price alone dictated that the 928 be out of reach of most buyers, and certainly wouldn't even be considered by buyers in the market for a $4K car like in your ad!! Second, my recollection in the early 80's when I was a college student was that the 928 was a bit of a puzzle: It was expensive and fast, driven by old farts slowly (am I in that category yet? Naaah) but lacked the sexy styling of a Ferrari, say, that would make a larger segment of buyers drool over it. Hey, I think of it this way: Bauhaus, form follows function, "styling" as mere artifice is unneeded and phony. The car follows its heart in beautiful engineering. But that doesn't attract the largest possible pool of buyers.
Finally, as you note, the 928 in the end was in fact recognized for being ahead of its time. Even to this day many of its styling and engineering elements can be found in abundance in modern cars. Examples include the torque tube (which Chevy proudly showed off in the latest Vette!), the wraparound integrated console/dashboard/door panels, the movable instrument cluster pod, the door handles, rear-mounted trans (and battery!), etc. Sadly, the rounded hip has not been favored, yet. One other notable feature of the car, the Weissach axle, hasn't been adopted by others either. I've always wondered about that. (I think Porsche patented it, but there's no reason it couldn't be licensed to others).
Thanks for sharing!
Rick
Ernest: The 928 was never the car for people who wanted the cachet. It was too expensive (my '83 listed out near $50K, pretty big change even 20 years later. And that's ten times as much as the car in Nicole's ad!) No, the cachet car was the cheaper 924 and later the 944. I'm not beating up 924 or 944 folks here and am not saying all or even most bought the car for the name alone... but there was definitely a market segment of buyers who went for the name.
The 928 was the car for the Mercedes driver who thought the 928 would be more or less interchangeable but more sporty. Wrong! And that was the eternal dilemma of the 928: Do we go more pure sportscar and oust the 911, or go more luxury and oust Mercedes? The 928 was perpetually caught in the middle.
Interestingly, I drove a GTS for the first time a coupla months ago. It was a '93 auto. My impression was that Porsche had finally aimed squarely at the SL type of market: The car was very quiet, plush, and had very calm road manners. You could barely hear the exhaust(!) A huge difference from the more raw character of every 928 that preceded it.
Nicole, interesting comment about the car being ahead of its time... and question why it didn't take off more (at least relative to other cars). I have three observations. First, price alone dictated that the 928 be out of reach of most buyers, and certainly wouldn't even be considered by buyers in the market for a $4K car like in your ad!! Second, my recollection in the early 80's when I was a college student was that the 928 was a bit of a puzzle: It was expensive and fast, driven by old farts slowly (am I in that category yet? Naaah) but lacked the sexy styling of a Ferrari, say, that would make a larger segment of buyers drool over it. Hey, I think of it this way: Bauhaus, form follows function, "styling" as mere artifice is unneeded and phony. The car follows its heart in beautiful engineering. But that doesn't attract the largest possible pool of buyers.
Finally, as you note, the 928 in the end was in fact recognized for being ahead of its time. Even to this day many of its styling and engineering elements can be found in abundance in modern cars. Examples include the torque tube (which Chevy proudly showed off in the latest Vette!), the wraparound integrated console/dashboard/door panels, the movable instrument cluster pod, the door handles, rear-mounted trans (and battery!), etc. Sadly, the rounded hip has not been favored, yet. One other notable feature of the car, the Weissach axle, hasn't been adopted by others either. I've always wondered about that. (I think Porsche patented it, but there's no reason it couldn't be licensed to others).
Thanks for sharing!
Rick
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03-26-2003, 10:20 PM
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I'll second most of what rt says...with a few caveats and an addition or two.
He's right when he states that the market segment that Porsche was aiming at was not the same as the late, unlamented Mercury Zephyr. The cost of a 928 during the years when the Zephyr/Fairmont was in production was almost exactly 10 times as much as one of these boxy cars.
And though rt probably accurately described the typical buyer demographic, I can't agree with the comments on styling. When the 928 debuted in 1978, one of my friend's fathers brought one home in beautiful silver. At the time, it appeared to be the most exotic thing I had ever seen...but it also inspired something in me- an appreciation for design. Even as a 12 year old I instantly picked up on the car's "brooding muscularity", and how none of its lines matched anything else on the road. It seemed refined, held back- almost seeming to say "I don't need to be driven fast- because I AM fast!", sort of a modern rendition of the Bauhaus design school applied to a motor vehicle. Really, though many Ferrari's look just as good [especially the 308!], all seemed to be modified versions of each other. That's not true with this car.
But the other point I'll make as to why the average person on the street never really aspired to one of these cars has to do with the simple aura it projects. When I first bought my car, I was amazed [and dismayed] at the reactions of the people around me. Airline people were always enthused, and all of them wanted to drive it, but of course that's predictable coming from men and women who operate transport catagory aircraft for a living. My redneck neighbors on the other hand, all came over for a look, and I could tell they liked the whole package [especially that "286" under the hood], but the idea of paying $10,000 for a car that at the time was 14 years old was appalling! No sense of art here [unless it is reflected off their Bud Light cans~]. But the worst reactions actually came from my family. These are simple people, most of whom still live in the backwoods around Asheville, North Carolina...and when they heard about and finally saw the car, they did not see advanced engineering, or perfect handling, or intensely thought out styling....no, they just saw that gold-plated symbol on the hood and the back parts of their minds screamed "NO!" There was nothing overtly said to me [except by my tarantula mother], but from watching them carefully, I came to realize that for some people, certain objects, persons, places, and jobs are considered un-attainable. Because of this car's exotic nature, a bar went across the doors of their minds and it became unthinkable that they could consider buying one themselves....and by extension they felt alarmed that someone from within their midst would go ahead and do so.
Well. For many reasons I've always been the "black sheep" of the family. BAAAAAAAA!
Normy!
'85 S2 5 Speed
He's right when he states that the market segment that Porsche was aiming at was not the same as the late, unlamented Mercury Zephyr. The cost of a 928 during the years when the Zephyr/Fairmont was in production was almost exactly 10 times as much as one of these boxy cars.
And though rt probably accurately described the typical buyer demographic, I can't agree with the comments on styling. When the 928 debuted in 1978, one of my friend's fathers brought one home in beautiful silver. At the time, it appeared to be the most exotic thing I had ever seen...but it also inspired something in me- an appreciation for design. Even as a 12 year old I instantly picked up on the car's "brooding muscularity", and how none of its lines matched anything else on the road. It seemed refined, held back- almost seeming to say "I don't need to be driven fast- because I AM fast!", sort of a modern rendition of the Bauhaus design school applied to a motor vehicle. Really, though many Ferrari's look just as good [especially the 308!], all seemed to be modified versions of each other. That's not true with this car.
But the other point I'll make as to why the average person on the street never really aspired to one of these cars has to do with the simple aura it projects. When I first bought my car, I was amazed [and dismayed] at the reactions of the people around me. Airline people were always enthused, and all of them wanted to drive it, but of course that's predictable coming from men and women who operate transport catagory aircraft for a living. My redneck neighbors on the other hand, all came over for a look, and I could tell they liked the whole package [especially that "286" under the hood], but the idea of paying $10,000 for a car that at the time was 14 years old was appalling! No sense of art here [unless it is reflected off their Bud Light cans~]. But the worst reactions actually came from my family. These are simple people, most of whom still live in the backwoods around Asheville, North Carolina...and when they heard about and finally saw the car, they did not see advanced engineering, or perfect handling, or intensely thought out styling....no, they just saw that gold-plated symbol on the hood and the back parts of their minds screamed "NO!" There was nothing overtly said to me [except by my tarantula mother], but from watching them carefully, I came to realize that for some people, certain objects, persons, places, and jobs are considered un-attainable. Because of this car's exotic nature, a bar went across the doors of their minds and it became unthinkable that they could consider buying one themselves....and by extension they felt alarmed that someone from within their midst would go ahead and do so.
Well. For many reasons I've always been the "black sheep" of the family. BAAAAAAAA!
Normy!
'85 S2 5 Speed
03-26-2003, 10:46 PM
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rjtw,
I think you've more accurately describe the situation (and zeitgeist) than I have. The SL crowd fits perfectly. The money for the car, the desire for the cachet and the lack of interest in and appreciation for driving for it's own sake.
In any event, the 928 was unappreciated in its own time.
I think you've more accurately describe the situation (and zeitgeist) than I have. The SL crowd fits perfectly. The money for the car, the desire for the cachet and the lack of interest in and appreciation for driving for it's own sake.
In any event, the 928 was unappreciated in its own time.
03-27-2003, 01:23 AM
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Normy, I know exactly what you mean about that "bar across people's minds," to borrow your phrase. I've had car discussions with several of my peers (late 20-somethings just starting that upward professional climb), and see how worked up they get over "the new Maxima" or "yeah, a grand prix" then shake my head. When they say, "Oh, sorry we can't have a Porsche", I reply, "no, if you do your homework, for the price of those you could have two."
03-27-2003, 02:02 AM
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Or more.
The 928 and 928 Turbo is priced to a fraction of the 928. As much as I hate to admit it, I probably should have gotten a 928 Turbo...
Then again, maybe not. According to the insurance compnay, a Porsche is still a Porsche, and I don't have a turbo to worry about, just 4 more cylinders, and a "bit" more torque. Course a 928 cost just a "touch" more.
Anyways, eighter way, it's pretty cheap! Expecaly compared to a new car. And as a guy wanting a "tinker car" the 928 is perfect! Theres always something to be fixed!
No bars here!
The 928 and 928 Turbo is priced to a fraction of the 928. As much as I hate to admit it, I probably should have gotten a 928 Turbo...
Then again, maybe not. According to the insurance compnay, a Porsche is still a Porsche, and I don't have a turbo to worry about, just 4 more cylinders, and a "bit" more torque. Course a 928 cost just a "touch" more.
Anyways, eighter way, it's pretty cheap! Expecaly compared to a new car. And as a guy wanting a "tinker car" the 928 is perfect! Theres always something to be fixed!
No bars here!
03-27-2003, 04:58 AM
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Normy: I'm the black sheep, too! Not just because I am the only one in the family who left for the US. My Dad often asks me, if I still need two cars - and we get into the same discussion. He does not understand why I would not just get one nice car - such as his 528i or a Mercedes E Class - and be done. Instead I have two old cars that need attention.
But then again, we have to look at the incentives in CA to drive an old car. Vehicle registration and colission insurance goes down with age, while on a new car you'd pay 8.25% VAT (still not as much as the 16% in Germany, but nevertheless...
Gas prices don't matter too much. And while labor is extremely expensive here at $115/hour, parts are a lot cheaper than in Germany. Besides, there is no vehicle inspeciton here, so on my daily driver I can let certain things slide that I'd have to take care immediately in Germany.
Add the lack of any significant depreciation on these old cars, and it is clear how much more feasable it is to have two old cars than one new car of the same value (which it won't hold for very long). I recently found out that if I'd sell both my cars, all I'd get new is a Mercedes 230 Sportscoupe...
rjtw: I think one of my comments was misunderstood: It is clear to me that the 928 would not appeal to Zephyr buyers as a product they'd consider buying.
What I meant was that if a new product is introduced that is as revolutionary as the 928, it starts new trends for all sorts of automobiles. If I'd see a such trend, I would not sink my money into a new car that does not follow that trend, yet - because I know that such trends will carry over into products I can afford within reasonable time. OK, it took a while until we saw integrated bumpers in "normal" cars, and the wraparound dash took a while also. But shapes did get softer, more functional, and a lot of the tacky trim went away.
Looking at the cars in the ads, I conclude that the marketing approach for mass market vehicles was very different here in the US than it was in Germany at the time. Here, it seems, manufacturers looked at what people were already buying and giving them as many variations of the same as possible, in order to replace what they were used to.
Same approach as tract home builders, who still offer the style of 30 years ago, and your choices are just between tacky trim A and tacky trim B. OK OK, I admit, they now have double pane windows and the tile countertops are white instead of beige. BIG innovations!!! ;-)
In Germany, people constantly expecetd innovations beyond looks, in order to buy new cars. The quality was probably higher, so that they could have held on to their cars longer, if there wasn't a functional incentive to switch to something better. I'm not an expert in automotive marketing, just guessing here...
I was in my teens then, and driving my Dad crazy trying to convince him not to buy another Mercedes like everybody else (most of my neighbors worked for Mercedes, so they were standard mode of transportation in our neighborhood). I tried to cinvince him to buy the futuristic looking French Citroen CX - a different, very stylisch approach to a family sedan, but low in quality. Today I'm glad he didn't do it, because he'd probably never talk to me again...
As Normy says, some people would never even touch a Porsche. I had a Vietnamese co-worer, who once came to my office and saw my Windows background with a picture of the 928. He goes "Oh, Pooorsh - ekbensive, very ekbensive!!!" I say "Well, that depends on what condition it is in, and how you take care of it". He goes: "Noo, Poorsch - alway ekbensive, very ekbesive"... It went back and forth a few times until I finally gave up. He keeps buying brand new Toyota Corollas every three years - with all the depreciation. THAT's "ekbensive" to me! But it's probably accepted in his social group.
But then again, we have to look at the incentives in CA to drive an old car. Vehicle registration and colission insurance goes down with age, while on a new car you'd pay 8.25% VAT (still not as much as the 16% in Germany, but nevertheless...
Gas prices don't matter too much. And while labor is extremely expensive here at $115/hour, parts are a lot cheaper than in Germany. Besides, there is no vehicle inspeciton here, so on my daily driver I can let certain things slide that I'd have to take care immediately in Germany.
Add the lack of any significant depreciation on these old cars, and it is clear how much more feasable it is to have two old cars than one new car of the same value (which it won't hold for very long). I recently found out that if I'd sell both my cars, all I'd get new is a Mercedes 230 Sportscoupe...
rjtw: I think one of my comments was misunderstood: It is clear to me that the 928 would not appeal to Zephyr buyers as a product they'd consider buying.
What I meant was that if a new product is introduced that is as revolutionary as the 928, it starts new trends for all sorts of automobiles. If I'd see a such trend, I would not sink my money into a new car that does not follow that trend, yet - because I know that such trends will carry over into products I can afford within reasonable time. OK, it took a while until we saw integrated bumpers in "normal" cars, and the wraparound dash took a while also. But shapes did get softer, more functional, and a lot of the tacky trim went away.
Looking at the cars in the ads, I conclude that the marketing approach for mass market vehicles was very different here in the US than it was in Germany at the time. Here, it seems, manufacturers looked at what people were already buying and giving them as many variations of the same as possible, in order to replace what they were used to.
Same approach as tract home builders, who still offer the style of 30 years ago, and your choices are just between tacky trim A and tacky trim B. OK OK, I admit, they now have double pane windows and the tile countertops are white instead of beige. BIG innovations!!! ;-)
In Germany, people constantly expecetd innovations beyond looks, in order to buy new cars. The quality was probably higher, so that they could have held on to their cars longer, if there wasn't a functional incentive to switch to something better. I'm not an expert in automotive marketing, just guessing here...
I was in my teens then, and driving my Dad crazy trying to convince him not to buy another Mercedes like everybody else (most of my neighbors worked for Mercedes, so they were standard mode of transportation in our neighborhood). I tried to cinvince him to buy the futuristic looking French Citroen CX - a different, very stylisch approach to a family sedan, but low in quality. Today I'm glad he didn't do it, because he'd probably never talk to me again...
As Normy says, some people would never even touch a Porsche. I had a Vietnamese co-worer, who once came to my office and saw my Windows background with a picture of the 928. He goes "Oh, Pooorsh - ekbensive, very ekbensive!!!" I say "Well, that depends on what condition it is in, and how you take care of it". He goes: "Noo, Poorsch - alway ekbensive, very ekbesive"... It went back and forth a few times until I finally gave up. He keeps buying brand new Toyota Corollas every three years - with all the depreciation. THAT's "ekbensive" to me! But it's probably accepted in his social group.
03-27-2003, 09:19 AM
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Nicole, as I recall the marketing focus was on buying new cars - any new cars even a gremlin. I agree it was not the most sophisticated marketing approach but it was what worked at the time here in the US.
The 928 didn't get much attention because you just never saw one and if you did the price was in the exotic range - even above the 911.
Check out this page from the 87 928S4 workbook. Priced for only 1 in 5000 buyers.
<img src="http://home.attbi.com/~coachorange/928guide.jpg" alt=" - " />
The 928 didn't get much attention because you just never saw one and if you did the price was in the exotic range - even above the 911.
Check out this page from the 87 928S4 workbook. Priced for only 1 in 5000 buyers.
<img src="http://home.attbi.com/~coachorange/928guide.jpg" alt=" - " />
03-27-2003, 10:20 AM
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Jerry,
I have a Car & Driver review of your car (87 S4). If you would like a copy, look in :
<a href="http://briefcase.yahoo.com/troos@swbell.net" target="_blank">http://briefcase.yahoo.com/troos@swbell.net</a>
/public /928
5 pages, 5 jpeg files. The original pdf file was too big to post.
If anyone else has some of the original car magazine articles please contact me. I would like to scan them and return the magazines to you. I have been sent copies in the past and they do not scan nearly as well as the originals.
Any articles would be greatly appreciated.
I have a Car & Driver review of your car (87 S4). If you would like a copy, look in :
<a href="http://briefcase.yahoo.com/troos@swbell.net" target="_blank">http://briefcase.yahoo.com/troos@swbell.net</a>
/public /928
5 pages, 5 jpeg files. The original pdf file was too big to post.
If anyone else has some of the original car magazine articles please contact me. I would like to scan them and return the magazines to you. I have been sent copies in the past and they do not scan nearly as well as the originals.
Any articles would be greatly appreciated.
03-27-2003, 11:58 AM
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Thanks Tobinr. I actually have that specific issue of Car and Driver. Also, it is copied in the Porsche 928 Takes on the Competition Book.
Some day I am going to put all of these articles on my web site as the collection has grown.
Some day I am going to put all of these articles on my web site as the collection has grown.