Supercharging vs. Stroker Kit
07-08-2003, 03:08 AM
#31
I totally agree Z, on your point above. All of them. Its just that people always carp on the fuel injection system when they modify. Or at least some do.... My point is that the improvement with an aftermarket ECU seems to go up exponentially in relation to the distance away from stock a motor goes.
Its 11 o-cuck, and I'm tired. Sentence structure is out the window long ago.
You try sitting here when you have a perfectly good S4 sitting downstairs in your garage.
Its 11 o-cuck, and I'm tired. Sentence structure is out the window long ago.
You try sitting here when you have a perfectly good S4 sitting downstairs in your garage.
07-08-2003, 03:35 AM
#32
Three Wheelin'
I agree with both of you!
Theres nothing wrong with trying to get more out of an engine in any configuration. But what gets me is that most people when they do blow them up, blame everything but themselves. It's funny how that works, but most engine failures can be traced back to the human factor.
FWIW; It wasn't a week after I mentioned on one of the boards that DEVEK was the one I chose to rebuild my 89 S4 motor that I received an email from a person who criticized my choice and the fact I didn't do it myself and save tons of duckies (you know who you are). Even with all that I have learn though Marc, I would still have him build my next motor rather than doing it myself. A peace of mind is worth more than any amount of money.
Humm, 5.4L SC with a custom intake (no need for the stock one with SC), DTA injection, DEVEK L-II headers, ?????
Theres nothing wrong with trying to get more out of an engine in any configuration. But what gets me is that most people when they do blow them up, blame everything but themselves. It's funny how that works, but most engine failures can be traced back to the human factor.
FWIW; It wasn't a week after I mentioned on one of the boards that DEVEK was the one I chose to rebuild my 89 S4 motor that I received an email from a person who criticized my choice and the fact I didn't do it myself and save tons of duckies (you know who you are). Even with all that I have learn though Marc, I would still have him build my next motor rather than doing it myself. A peace of mind is worth more than any amount of money.
Humm, 5.4L SC with a custom intake (no need for the stock one with SC), DTA injection, DEVEK L-II headers, ?????
07-08-2003, 03:43 AM
#33
Drifting
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All I ever really wanted was to make my automatic car more fun to drive in traffic and at low speeds. A very good way to make an automatic more fun is to add low end power. A stroker kit would do this for the same price I paid for my car, about $9k.
A centrifugal blower would add big power with more of it being at the top end. This is very good for a 5 speed. I would have gone the FAST route or now the Tim Murphy route if I had a 5 speed. Cost = $5K FAST low boost, $8k Tim Murphy high boost.
I decided to go with a Roots SC for these reason:
A roots blower provides near full boost near wide open throttle even at very low rpms . (from idle shortly after my foot hits the floor I am making very near full boost)
A roots continues to make boost throughout the rpm range.
An Eaton/Magnuson MP112 is capable of making around 14 psi and 600 crank HP on an S4.
An Eaton/Magnuson blower is made to last over 100k miles and the blowers themselves are very reliable.
Roots blowers come as original equipment on many cars (Mercedes, Jaguar, Ford, GM, Nissan, Toyota) and can be had used for cheap. I got mine for $200 used from a Jaguar and it works.
I wanted to do something original
I wanted something more cost effective than the other options.
The main reason is that the Roots provides the lowend power and low speed acceleration that the auto cars lack.
BC,
I offered my car to Huntely in Janurary as a test car. Derek was interested, but maybe he wanted a 5 speed because I did not hear from him again. I decided to go on with my project.
Andy K
A centrifugal blower would add big power with more of it being at the top end. This is very good for a 5 speed. I would have gone the FAST route or now the Tim Murphy route if I had a 5 speed. Cost = $5K FAST low boost, $8k Tim Murphy high boost.
I decided to go with a Roots SC for these reason:
A roots blower provides near full boost near wide open throttle even at very low rpms . (from idle shortly after my foot hits the floor I am making very near full boost)
A roots continues to make boost throughout the rpm range.
An Eaton/Magnuson MP112 is capable of making around 14 psi and 600 crank HP on an S4.
An Eaton/Magnuson blower is made to last over 100k miles and the blowers themselves are very reliable.
Roots blowers come as original equipment on many cars (Mercedes, Jaguar, Ford, GM, Nissan, Toyota) and can be had used for cheap. I got mine for $200 used from a Jaguar and it works.
I wanted to do something original
I wanted something more cost effective than the other options.
The main reason is that the Roots provides the lowend power and low speed acceleration that the auto cars lack.
BC,
I offered my car to Huntely in Janurary as a test car. Derek was interested, but maybe he wanted a 5 speed because I did not hear from him again. I decided to go on with my project.
Andy K
07-08-2003, 08:32 AM
#34
Racer
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Marc
The rod (what's left to see of it !) looks the same as the rod's in an '87 engine we recently stripped down. Compared to the rods from an '88 SE engine we are rebuilding, the '87's look stronger, the '88's neck down a lot at the pin end & so are weaker ? also probable different material/manufacturing processes
The rod (what's left to see of it !) looks the same as the rod's in an '87 engine we recently stripped down. Compared to the rods from an '88 SE engine we are rebuilding, the '87's look stronger, the '88's neck down a lot at the pin end & so are weaker ? also probable different material/manufacturing processes
07-08-2003, 10:27 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Noelracer928:
<strong>I'm mainly looking for a a top speed of 170-180MPH, and a 0 to 60 in the 5.0 - 6.2 range. ...Would it be easier getting the euro heads and cams and swaping them with mine?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">How much do you expect to do? stroker=rebuild and SC without rebuilding a weak engine=death.
Where would a rebuild plus a hot cam from Devek plus a little cylinder head milling for compression plus bigger valves plus porting and intake manifold work with a really good exaust get you?
Probably not 170mph+, but I bet a heck of a strong engine.
I wonder how far past $5k that is?
(Barring cracked blocks)how do you rate an engine ready for a bolt on SC? Good oil pressure/good compression?
<strong>I'm mainly looking for a a top speed of 170-180MPH, and a 0 to 60 in the 5.0 - 6.2 range. ...Would it be easier getting the euro heads and cams and swaping them with mine?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">How much do you expect to do? stroker=rebuild and SC without rebuilding a weak engine=death.
Where would a rebuild plus a hot cam from Devek plus a little cylinder head milling for compression plus bigger valves plus porting and intake manifold work with a really good exaust get you?
Probably not 170mph+, but I bet a heck of a strong engine.
I wonder how far past $5k that is?
(Barring cracked blocks)how do you rate an engine ready for a bolt on SC? Good oil pressure/good compression?
07-08-2003, 01:02 PM
#36
Burning Brakes
I don't think getting to 170mph is a big problem. Maybe the early body style would take more HP than an S4 but 400hp should get you there. I am pretty sure my GT tops 170 in stock form. It takes quite a bit of road to do 150 (done it) much less 170 (not quite enough open road around here).
07-08-2003, 01:57 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Hi Sterling,
I have heard of two LH ECU's, one in an S4 and one in a friend's '88 Club Sport that failed when driving.
The first happened when the car went over a largish pothole in the road. The second just failed as he was driving along - luckily for him, about 100 yds from my house.
The problem with both turned out to be "tile" failures.
I have heard of two LH ECU's, one in an S4 and one in a friend's '88 Club Sport that failed when driving.
The first happened when the car went over a largish pothole in the road. The second just failed as he was driving along - luckily for him, about 100 yds from my house.
The problem with both turned out to be "tile" failures.
07-08-2003, 02:28 PM
#39
Three Wheelin'
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My car ran very reliably for 20 years on 7 to 9 psig at the manifold. I was always wanting to "Turn it up Dude" (courtesy of the old Freedom Rock commercial), but after hearing horror stories of ring land failures in both the Callaway 944 turbos and 928 Turbos, I opted for forged pistons. Hey, the factory did this with the 944 turbo, and there is a reason for it. I think the crank and rods will take the abuse of 14 psig, but I did not want to risk the pistons letting go. Carl has also killed some pistons on 11 psig in his charged 928. The piston is the weak link in the turbocharged car.
As for the S4 stuff running "wicked high boost" (as they would say in New England)...well there are some more desirable features on the 32 V engines as compared to the 16 valvers. Combustion chamber design and oil spray are two key factors. My Audi has good features on both counts here and I can run 21 psig on 9:1 compression with no issue. It is a freight train like the 928.
In short, if you blow it and don't want to BLOW it, keep the boost below 10 psig and make sure you use a charge air cooler and get the fuel mixture as close to correct as possible. If you do that and drive it conservatively (unlike those punks in the boosted winged cars), then you will be fine. I know of at least one Callaway 944 running on 12 psig with 8:1 on machined cast pistons....but that is in the winter, when the air is cold, he runs 10 psig the rest of the time.
As for the S4 stuff running "wicked high boost" (as they would say in New England)...well there are some more desirable features on the 32 V engines as compared to the 16 valvers. Combustion chamber design and oil spray are two key factors. My Audi has good features on both counts here and I can run 21 psig on 9:1 compression with no issue. It is a freight train like the 928.
In short, if you blow it and don't want to BLOW it, keep the boost below 10 psig and make sure you use a charge air cooler and get the fuel mixture as close to correct as possible. If you do that and drive it conservatively (unlike those punks in the boosted winged cars), then you will be fine. I know of at least one Callaway 944 running on 12 psig with 8:1 on machined cast pistons....but that is in the winter, when the air is cold, he runs 10 psig the rest of the time.
07-08-2003, 02:32 PM
#40
Racer
Thread Starter
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Dan Perez:
<strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">How much do you expect to do? stroker=rebuild and SC without rebuilding a weak engine=death.
Where would a rebuild plus a hot cam from Devek plus a little cylinder head milling for compression plus bigger valves plus porting and intake manifold work with a really good exaust get you?
Probably not 170mph+, but I bet a heck of a strong engine.
I wonder how far past $5k that is?
(Barring cracked blocks)how do you rate an engine ready for a bolt on SC? Good oil pressure/good compression?</strong>[/QUOTE]
If not 170mph+ where do you think then? Most of the stuff I can do myself. I,ve been rebuilding engines for quite some time. Granted I've never rebuilt a whole 928 engine (just the top end) but I have enough know how to get the job done correctly.
<strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">How much do you expect to do? stroker=rebuild and SC without rebuilding a weak engine=death.
Where would a rebuild plus a hot cam from Devek plus a little cylinder head milling for compression plus bigger valves plus porting and intake manifold work with a really good exaust get you?
Probably not 170mph+, but I bet a heck of a strong engine.
I wonder how far past $5k that is?
(Barring cracked blocks)how do you rate an engine ready for a bolt on SC? Good oil pressure/good compression?</strong>[/QUOTE]
If not 170mph+ where do you think then? Most of the stuff I can do myself. I,ve been rebuilding engines for quite some time. Granted I've never rebuilt a whole 928 engine (just the top end) but I have enough know how to get the job done correctly.
07-08-2003, 02:46 PM
#41
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Originally posted by John:
In short, if you blow it and don't want to BLOW it, keep the boost below 10 psig and make sure you use a charge air cooler and get the fuel mixture as close to correct as possible.
In short, if you blow it and don't want to BLOW it, keep the boost below 10 psig and make sure you use a charge air cooler and get the fuel mixture as close to correct as possible.
Last edited by Z; 07-18-2003 at 06:42 PM.
07-08-2003, 03:41 PM
#43
Track Day
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Here's an original and the most cost effective solution. Sell your car, search ebay for an s4, buy the s4, turn the ignition key. Aproximately 0-60 in 6.2 sec, and as we all know topend of 176mph. I bought my 89 s4 with 84k mi on it, in perfect condition, with every option, including the baby seat, heated lumbar seats, etc. for $10,700.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
07-08-2003, 04:54 PM
#45
I know your watching this thread marc, so here goes:
We are on supercharging. It is known that you can control the tilt and shape of a power curve with the length and ID of header tubes in a NA or Supercharged engine (turbo= TOTALLY different).
Your current LII headers have a diameter that I am sure was researched, and you have mentioned before that the tube diameter can be changed if the customer requests. Did you ever do any testing at athe 450/500 hp level with you cars on different lengths and diameters?
Essentially, if Tim decided to get your headers, and get past 600 or 700 rwhp (built bottom end or not), it is said in A graham Bell's book that he may actually need MORE diamter (if not LESS length) in the primaries to match that hp level.
Do we have some comments on this?
We are on supercharging. It is known that you can control the tilt and shape of a power curve with the length and ID of header tubes in a NA or Supercharged engine (turbo= TOTALLY different).
Your current LII headers have a diameter that I am sure was researched, and you have mentioned before that the tube diameter can be changed if the customer requests. Did you ever do any testing at athe 450/500 hp level with you cars on different lengths and diameters?
Essentially, if Tim decided to get your headers, and get past 600 or 700 rwhp (built bottom end or not), it is said in A graham Bell's book that he may actually need MORE diamter (if not LESS length) in the primaries to match that hp level.
Do we have some comments on this?