Looking to trade my GTS
WHOOPS!!!.....sorry, I thought the thread said TRADING MY GTS. I must be in the wrong thread.
01-18-2008, 02:20 AM
#47
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again, ive driven both and race one. (the 928) I run a time faster than one of the best drviers around in a porsche GT3 (Max the ax angelleli) in a car that has been gutted to near the same weight and a bolt on set of headers. I also
race with a bunch of the local BMW finatics. Ive talked with them about this, and because we are a group of experienced racers, it is quite obvious to us, but for some reason not for you two, that a 4000lbs is not a racer, no mater that it has 400hp. the bmw M5 is a great car. BUT,it is a HUGE car. it weighs 4000lbs!!! I dont care what road and track give it for 0-60. 0-60 sells cars. Overall, on a track, a 500lb disadvantage is huge. Im not splitting hairs with the tires and tire sizes, specs, etc. for 0-60, and especially handling, tire sizes is a big deal. and dont start talking about recovery of "tail spins" of different cars, when in fact, the 928 is probably one of the most neutral cars to race out there!
so, M5 more of a race car??? where did you get this? how many race cars use struts for suspension. (928s use coil overs on all 4 corners). how many race cars have single piston brake calipers like the M5? (928's have Brembo 4 piston brake calipers stock) how many race cars are narrow, tall, and have 4 doors? (well, there are a few, but for some reason they put the driver in the back seat, and chop the hight of the car, like the Caddy in SpeedGT
)
Now you want to stack up a new honda civic to a 928?
The formula is pretty simple. Hp to weight for accel. absolute weight and chassis size and shape for handling. components that can take the stress for racing, etc etc. both a BMW and a porsche GTS are not race cars. both would turn near the same time on race track with a semi skilled driver. In absolute terms, the bmw would be slower on a track due to the 500lbs extra weight. acceleration would be close, but braking and handling would be at a disadvantage, and this is really not debatable.
no racer in their right mind would bet against this.
superior muscle only reins true on the dyno. net muscle is near the same and nimbleness is (sorry) in the corner of the ligher car, unless the 928GTS had some suspension or tire deficiency, which it really doesnt.
Cunningham, of american Iron fame, drove a M5 at sears toward the end of the season, he told us that it was a complete mess in the turns. fun on the straights, but a nightmare in the turns. why doesnt that surprise me. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 500lbs extra. thats 3 passengers in a 928. Picture, that. a 928 with 3 passengers . Then, a simple engine upgrade, to 335rwhp which is near the BMW M5 output. Then, those cars would be near the same in the handling department. 3 average weight men!
I would tend to agree with you, as BMWs typically handle fantastic, but there is no fact that would, by any stretch of imagination, that could show that a 500lb heavier M5 that is taller, higher CG, narrower, and heavier could EVER be a better handling car than a 928.
If you do some research, i would be willing to bet that the M5's 0-60mph advange is due to two factors. traction control and a close ratio set of gears in the 1st to 3rd gear range. (and possibly due to the smaller rear tires of the 928 vs the 275s on the M5)
I have no problem concieding to "faster "cars. stock to stock, there are many. the M5 is not one of them. In race car land, there are less for the reasons I talk about all the time, and in racing where you might be looking for best bang for the buck, there are none faster and cheaper.
Mk
race with a bunch of the local BMW finatics. Ive talked with them about this, and because we are a group of experienced racers, it is quite obvious to us, but for some reason not for you two, that a 4000lbs is not a racer, no mater that it has 400hp. the bmw M5 is a great car. BUT,it is a HUGE car. it weighs 4000lbs!!! I dont care what road and track give it for 0-60. 0-60 sells cars. Overall, on a track, a 500lb disadvantage is huge. Im not splitting hairs with the tires and tire sizes, specs, etc. for 0-60, and especially handling, tire sizes is a big deal. and dont start talking about recovery of "tail spins" of different cars, when in fact, the 928 is probably one of the most neutral cars to race out there!
so, M5 more of a race car??? where did you get this? how many race cars use struts for suspension. (928s use coil overs on all 4 corners). how many race cars have single piston brake calipers like the M5? (928's have Brembo 4 piston brake calipers stock) how many race cars are narrow, tall, and have 4 doors? (well, there are a few, but for some reason they put the driver in the back seat, and chop the hight of the car, like the Caddy in SpeedGT
)Now you want to stack up a new honda civic to a 928?
The formula is pretty simple. Hp to weight for accel. absolute weight and chassis size and shape for handling. components that can take the stress for racing, etc etc. both a BMW and a porsche GTS are not race cars. both would turn near the same time on race track with a semi skilled driver. In absolute terms, the bmw would be slower on a track due to the 500lbs extra weight. acceleration would be close, but braking and handling would be at a disadvantage, and this is really not debatable.
no racer in their right mind would bet against this.
superior muscle only reins true on the dyno. net muscle is near the same and nimbleness is (sorry) in the corner of the ligher car, unless the 928GTS had some suspension or tire deficiency, which it really doesnt.
Cunningham, of american Iron fame, drove a M5 at sears toward the end of the season, he told us that it was a complete mess in the turns. fun on the straights, but a nightmare in the turns. why doesnt that surprise me. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 500lbs extra. thats 3 passengers in a 928. Picture, that. a 928 with 3 passengers . Then, a simple engine upgrade, to 335rwhp which is near the BMW M5 output. Then, those cars would be near the same in the handling department. 3 average weight men!
I would tend to agree with you, as BMWs typically handle fantastic, but there is no fact that would, by any stretch of imagination, that could show that a 500lb heavier M5 that is taller, higher CG, narrower, and heavier could EVER be a better handling car than a 928.
If you do some research, i would be willing to bet that the M5's 0-60mph advange is due to two factors. traction control and a close ratio set of gears in the 1st to 3rd gear range. (and possibly due to the smaller rear tires of the 928 vs the 275s on the M5)
I have no problem concieding to "faster "cars. stock to stock, there are many. the M5 is not one of them. In race car land, there are less for the reasons I talk about all the time, and in racing where you might be looking for best bang for the buck, there are none faster and cheaper.
Mk
I never thought I'd participate in this type of debate. I'm a HUGE fan of both cars, and do believe the M5 would do better around a race track in the hands of an average (or below) driver like myself. I've never driven the M5, but owned an M6 that I drove like I stole. It shares the same wheelbase and suspension as the M5. I've seen many M5's recover from a tail spin, while just about every single 928 that I've seen (or experienced) lose traction in a turn, could not recover as cleanly.
I also believe that the M5 is more of a race car by design (although based on 4 door sedan), while the 928 is a lot of things, but not a race car out of the box
If you split hairs over tire sizes and conditions of tests and specs, then you're desperate to make a case. It's ok to admit it guys. Some cars are faster than our 928's. Without digressong, you might want to race a new Honda civic and you'll see what I mean
Again, don't shoot me, because I love boith. I'm just a realist about the M5 superior muscle and nimbleness
I also believe that the M5 is more of a race car by design (although based on 4 door sedan), while the 928 is a lot of things, but not a race car out of the box
If you split hairs over tire sizes and conditions of tests and specs, then you're desperate to make a case. It's ok to admit it guys. Some cars are faster than our 928's. Without digressong, you might want to race a new Honda civic and you'll see what I mean
Again, don't shoot me, because I love boith. I'm just a realist about the M5 superior muscle and nimbleness
01-18-2008, 07:42 AM
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All of this debate came from me stating that it would run circles around an 928...maybe a bad choice of words...but the bottom line is...there is not one STREET spec...time...speed...braking..acceleration....0-60....0-100...1/4 mile time.....that makes the GTS a superior car.....is that better.....Jesus...this post has gone to hell...I don't give a **** about a gutted 82 928 that runs fast around the track.....the original post states that...something like...I want to get rid of my GTS for something German....GTS=30K....can't beat an M5....thats it kiddos.....nothing more nothing less.......I state the obvious...that it is a superior car in all aspects...say it will be faster...say it will run circles around the GTS....and we all end up with Sears point lap times.....Give me a furking break....get a grip....
01-18-2008, 11:07 AM
#49
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I don't know about anyone else but I learned a few things about "fast" that I didn't know thanks to this thread, and, even though I don't want to give up my 928 S4 right now, if I ever decide to sell it the BMW M5 or M6 is now near the top of the affordable and fun replacement list.
It sounds like the kind of car I could enjoy driving but still take the family of 4 on a road trip in, something the 928 can't do for me. A sporty luxury sleeper.
If I find an extra pile of cash anytime soon I'll have one parked beside the 928!
It sounds like the kind of car I could enjoy driving but still take the family of 4 on a road trip in, something the 928 can't do for me. A sporty luxury sleeper.
If I find an extra pile of cash anytime soon I'll have one parked beside the 928!
01-18-2008, 12:02 PM
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Even better...I will try to make this as simplistic as possible..not dumb it down..but bottom line it...I will take my wife and a couple in the Bimmer..across country to Vegas.....anyone here..take the GTS..and a couple....across country to Vegas....and I can guarantee you I will not hear my wife say" you were supposed to take that turn there" (navigation..stock ..ohh!!!.)or hear my buddies wife say..."can you please move your seat up...my knees are crushing my t!ts".....doesn't that say it all?....By the time we get to Vegas no one will be heading to divorce court...or need reconstructive surgery...The Porsche however.....will be a different story....That pretty much sums it up in a nut shelll....or a post shell...however you look at...the M5 takes the cake...in every aspect....
01-18-2008, 12:47 PM
#52
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In the 4 person road trip scenario obviously the M5 wins hands down but sometimes I like to drive alone strictly for my own enjoyment because even if your buddy's wife is comfortable she can still be a pain in the ***...
So I think the 928 will provide the driving enjoyment I crave with a little less body roll, a little less concern when realizing I should have got on the brakes a little sooner and with the supercharger in my 928 I'm not even sure the M5 could give me anything I don't already have in the acceleration department...
But then again I haven't driven one either so I'm willing, even looking forward, to be proven wrong.
01-18-2008, 01:24 PM
#53
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Brett, Ill give you a grip. I only added the "gutted" comparison to add to ALL the common sense i could throw out to the argument. yes, bad choice of words. ("You would run circles around the 928 with a M5")
You keep on bringing up specs!!!!
If you talk about "running circles" around something, a track is the ultimate measure. specs like "0-60" , slalom, etc are indicators, and are heavily dependent on many factors that are not consistant from test to test event.
What I am assuring you, is that a M5 might be quicker off the line due to the larger rear tires and traction control. PERIOD. It will not handle better, and it will be slower on the track, OR AT LEAST near the same on the track as a GTS.
WHY, basic physics! 500lbs heavier weight is a HUGE factor. its one of the largest factors IN racing!, Its even more important than to HP to weight ratios.
So, until you find a stock M5 that ran around ANY track, and we compare what a GTS can do, the argument is at best stupid. Ill give you 0-60. I havent compared the lower gear ratios, traction control, etc, to see why there is a .5 second disparity. However, besides that, as far as handling, its too subjective to say, " the M5 handles or runs circles around the GTS" it has no ability to stop faster. if you say, it can, tell me logically why. smaller brakes?
Braking is mostly dependant on weight and tires, not even the brakes. a skilled foot can make almost any car stop quick dependent on those two factors. now, doing it repeatately, on a track, over an hour, is an entirely different story.
that 4000lb M5, with 928 1982 "S" brakes (an larger diameter rotors) will not stand a chance over a lap at a race track.
You then go on to say the M5 is more of a race car. Thats almost funny!
nothing on the M5 is a race car. at least the 928gts has big red brembo racing brakes, and a racing inspired suspension with coil overs.
so, find a time at a local track, preferably out west, ill find a GTS and smoke the time, as long as we are talking stock to stock, tire to tire similar.
Why???? BMW has 50 more hp and weighs 500lbs more.
mk
EDIT; as far as drving to Las Vegas with 4 people, OF course. But then , why dont we talk about that same set of couples going skiing to mammoth trust me, thats why I own a Chevy Tahoe!!!! 
EDIT II; I just ran the gear ratios. the M5 is like the GTS with the 3.09
if you recall, this gave the GTS a sub first, (30% more torque) but other gears after 2nd ( 2nd is also low on the BMW 17% lower) the gears are very close to the GTS . What this did , if you could keep traction, was give a tremendous launch out of the hole, very important for 1/4 mile and 0-60 runs.
However, if you look at the 1/4 runs of the M5, 13.3 is not much better than the GTS, hardly "running circles" around the GTS!!
M5 gears: 13.3:1 1st, 8:1 2nd, 5.2:1 3rd gear and 3.9 4th needed to get to near 120mph. in effect, its got a super low 1st and the rest of the gears are near the same. any race after 30-40 mph would be near identical.
EDIT III; GTS has been rated at 5.0 seconds 0-60 . 1/4 mile near 13.7.
http://www.engineceramics.com/928gts/928.htm
You keep on bringing up specs!!!!
If you talk about "running circles" around something, a track is the ultimate measure. specs like "0-60" , slalom, etc are indicators, and are heavily dependent on many factors that are not consistant from test to test event.
What I am assuring you, is that a M5 might be quicker off the line due to the larger rear tires and traction control. PERIOD. It will not handle better, and it will be slower on the track, OR AT LEAST near the same on the track as a GTS.
WHY, basic physics! 500lbs heavier weight is a HUGE factor. its one of the largest factors IN racing!, Its even more important than to HP to weight ratios.
So, until you find a stock M5 that ran around ANY track, and we compare what a GTS can do, the argument is at best stupid. Ill give you 0-60. I havent compared the lower gear ratios, traction control, etc, to see why there is a .5 second disparity. However, besides that, as far as handling, its too subjective to say, " the M5 handles or runs circles around the GTS" it has no ability to stop faster. if you say, it can, tell me logically why. smaller brakes?
Braking is mostly dependant on weight and tires, not even the brakes. a skilled foot can make almost any car stop quick dependent on those two factors. now, doing it repeatately, on a track, over an hour, is an entirely different story.
that 4000lb M5, with 928 1982 "S" brakes (an larger diameter rotors) will not stand a chance over a lap at a race track.
You then go on to say the M5 is more of a race car. Thats almost funny!
nothing on the M5 is a race car. at least the 928gts has big red brembo racing brakes, and a racing inspired suspension with coil overs.
so, find a time at a local track, preferably out west, ill find a GTS and smoke the time, as long as we are talking stock to stock, tire to tire similar.
Why???? BMW has 50 more hp and weighs 500lbs more.
mk
EDIT; as far as drving to Las Vegas with 4 people, OF course. But then , why dont we talk about that same set of couples going skiing to mammoth
trust me, thats why I own a Chevy Tahoe!!!! EDIT II; I just ran the gear ratios. the M5 is like the GTS with the 3.09
if you recall, this gave the GTS a sub first, (30% more torque) but other gears after 2nd ( 2nd is also low on the BMW 17% lower) the gears are very close to the GTS . What this did , if you could keep traction, was give a tremendous launch out of the hole, very important for 1/4 mile and 0-60 runs.
However, if you look at the 1/4 runs of the M5, 13.3 is not much better than the GTS, hardly "running circles" around the GTS!!
M5 gears: 13.3:1 1st, 8:1 2nd, 5.2:1 3rd gear and 3.9 4th needed to get to near 120mph. in effect, its got a super low 1st and the rest of the gears are near the same. any race after 30-40 mph would be near identical.
EDIT III; GTS has been rated at 5.0 seconds 0-60 . 1/4 mile near 13.7.
http://www.engineceramics.com/928gts/928.htm
All of this debate came from me stating that it would run circles around an 928...maybe a bad choice of words...but the bottom line is...there is not one STREET spec...time...speed...braking..acceleration....0-60....0-100...1/4 mile time.....that makes the GTS a superior car.....is that better.....Jesus...this post has gone to hell...I don't give a **** about a gutted 82 928 that runs fast around the track.....the original post states that...something like...I want to get rid of my GTS for something German....GTS=30K....can't beat an M5....thats it kiddos.....nothing more nothing less.......I state the obvious...that it is a superior car in all aspects...say it will be faster...say it will run circles around the GTS....and we all end up with Sears point lap times.....Give me a furking break....get a grip....
Last edited by mark kibort; 01-18-2008 at 02:13 PM.
01-18-2008, 02:53 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Brett
......but bottom line it...I will take my wife and a couple in the Bimmer..across country to Vegas..
01-18-2008, 03:16 PM
#55
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01-18-2008, 03:32 PM
#56
Nordschleife Master
If you need to regularly haul around 4 people i wouldn't have a 928,
I also wouldn't have an M5, I would stick with a 7 Series or S Class. Better yet, an Alpina B12.
To compare cars is one thing, but these cars are so different. Compare the 928 to the equivelent 8 series or a newer 911 or a Z8 if anything. The M5 is a saloon, its not a GT car. Why do tests have the M5 against the E55 and S6 RS6, because they are comparable. BMW has always used the M5 to say its faster then a 911 and all thats stuff, but its first and formost a sedan. A very fast sedan but its no coupe, and no GT.
This is coming from a HUGE M5 fanatic BTW. BUT THEY ARE DIFFERENT CARS! I brought the FIRST (and possibly only) 3.8L E34 Euro M5 into California 7 years ago. I loved these cars, Ive driven the M5 on the autobahn, Toured them around Germany, but its not a comparable car to the 928. The only thing that you can compare them to is based on price. You can say they cost about the same. I still think the true GTS price should be $40K which maybe further proves what a great buy the M5 is. But they are also a dime a dozen (M5). They are really common and dont make anywhere near the statement that the 928 does. To most people the M5 is just another 5 series with some chrome looking wheels and a body kit. Sure its a 400 HP monster, but its not the same.
Also Most M5's on ebay a huge mile monsters, most cars ive seen are over 70K miles on a 5 year old car. These cars see much heavier use and arent cared for as well. The S62 engine is also potentially problematic with its Dual Vanos camshaft timing mechanism. These were $2,000-$4,000 fixes and last I checked still a problem area.
THE M5 IS NO RACE CAR, that statement is simply insane.
I also wouldn't have an M5, I would stick with a 7 Series or S Class. Better yet, an Alpina B12.
To compare cars is one thing, but these cars are so different. Compare the 928 to the equivelent 8 series or a newer 911 or a Z8 if anything. The M5 is a saloon, its not a GT car. Why do tests have the M5 against the E55 and S6 RS6, because they are comparable. BMW has always used the M5 to say its faster then a 911 and all thats stuff, but its first and formost a sedan. A very fast sedan but its no coupe, and no GT.
This is coming from a HUGE M5 fanatic BTW. BUT THEY ARE DIFFERENT CARS! I brought the FIRST (and possibly only) 3.8L E34 Euro M5 into California 7 years ago. I loved these cars, Ive driven the M5 on the autobahn, Toured them around Germany, but its not a comparable car to the 928. The only thing that you can compare them to is based on price. You can say they cost about the same. I still think the true GTS price should be $40K which maybe further proves what a great buy the M5 is. But they are also a dime a dozen (M5). They are really common and dont make anywhere near the statement that the 928 does. To most people the M5 is just another 5 series with some chrome looking wheels and a body kit. Sure its a 400 HP monster, but its not the same.
Also Most M5's on ebay a huge mile monsters, most cars ive seen are over 70K miles on a 5 year old car. These cars see much heavier use and arent cared for as well. The S62 engine is also potentially problematic with its Dual Vanos camshaft timing mechanism. These were $2,000-$4,000 fixes and last I checked still a problem area.
THE M5 IS NO RACE CAR, that statement is simply insane.
01-18-2008, 04:01 PM
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I have never said the M5 was a race car..Mark brought the M5 specs to the track not I.......run circles is still a closer statement to the truth based on info available..run circles to most people just means superior in all aspects of normal driving which the M5 is....If your everyday driving means a five point harness and a helmet..god bless ya...not my idea of comfortable, enjoyable and everyday.......but anyway..this post has turned into a cluster F...I have not once made an excuse for the M5's superiority in every aspect of driving........It just appears that Mark has nothing but explainations(tires,gear ratios etc) as to why the GTS is lacking in just about everything when compared to the M5. Based on the HP to weight ratio...the weight is no big deal....its all relative..an extra 500 pounds distributed properly has no ill effects based on comparable data between the two..I can prove to you that in certain race conditions..an extra 500 lbs would be a godsend....any Nascar drive would love the extra left side weight going into the turns at Bristol or any short track....again..its relative..and weight is not all its cracked up to be here due to the extra HP...time on the track is not all time spent...so...for something that one would enjoy driving all of the time..and would be a superior replacement for a GTS...at 30K...all I have meant...nothing more nothing less...is that the M5 is that car....How quick we are to negate any type of enjoyment one would receive from all of the creature comforts...the interior of all our cars practically didn't change for an entire model run....I could go on and on...but anyway....How about those Patriots?
Last edited by BrettStrikes; 01-18-2008 at 07:05 PM.
01-18-2008, 04:08 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by Brett
...appears that Mark has nothing but excuses for the GTS lack of just about everything when compared to the M5
01-18-2008, 04:43 PM
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We all appreciate your intelligent posts here Charley...Thanks...If you can't afford a decent two cents...I will mail you a nickel for two posts...I'll even let ya keep the change...cuz I'm a good guy like that....
01-18-2008, 04:50 PM
#60
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Originally Posted by Brett
We all appreciate your intelligent posts here Charley...Thanks...If you can't afford a decent two cents...I will mail you a nickel for two posts...Keep the change....
I apologize if my comments were hurtful to you.