RyanPerrella

I honestly doubt that a 400HP E39 can hit 197

I used to post on the forum for a long time "asenna02" was my name

I was and still am a huge fan of the M5, but i have a hard time thinking the E39 would do 197. When the E60 came out, BMW was saying that without the VMax limiter that the car would do 202. That i can believe, but 100 fewer horsepower, not as efficient aerodynamics and only 5 mph fewer?

I will have to check out the site.

I still think for $30K which is what your target price should be for an E39, that its one hell of a car. I Think the GTS is a much bolder statement though. There are so many E39's running around, thats cool if you really do love the whole wolf in sheeps clothing thing or the Q car. I always thought that was cool, and i liked the practicality of it. But i am single, and 99% of the time i drive alone, so I figured why not have an impractical car. The 928 is hardly impractical but its much less so then the M5. (obviously this isnt the main reason to buy a car, but this was just a thought i had to justify buying a Pcar.)

BrettStrikes

There is not one spec...whether its braking..acceleration...1/4 mile times...0-60...or 0-100of the GTS..that is superior to the M5...I appreciate the love you give the 928..but..come on man...even with the 18' tires....I would still be giving you the peace sign in my side mirror...as you try to catch me...um...the brake info you have is incorrect...fronts on the GTS are 12.68 with the rears being 11.97....this info is from the 928 performance portfolio book.....M5 has 13.6 front and 12.9in the rear

IcemanG17

One thing to remember about comparing two cars is there is more to life than driving in straight lines as fast as you can........ With the tires that come on the M5 & its 4000+ lbs.....it will have a hard time beating a GTS around a racetrack..... & it will have no chance against a midly setup 928......its just too heavy....

mark kibort

You seemed to be lost in the test/spec results.

THE BOTTOM LINE:

BMW
1.4000lbs taller and narrower at 400hp gears close to the same as a GTS or S4
(exept for some closer lower gears)
2. I posted the pics of the brakes. yes, the rotors are larger diameter, but much thinner and uses tiny, VERY tiny calipers. (single pistons!!!! )
3. the tire sizes stock for the bmw are 18s 245 front and 275 rear. on 8" and 9.5 rims

GTS
1. 3500lbs wider and lower than the BMW an 350hp
2. brakes are porsche turbo , big reds! Huge calipers!
3. tire sizes can easily be matched to the bmw,even on the stock rims, but usually an upgrade to the BMW rims done (ie 8s and 10s or 9s and 11s)

sure, the 0-60 is all over the map. I have several euro magazines that have the S4 at 5.7 and the GTS at 5.5. ive seen BMW with 4.7 to 4.8 0-60. like i said, a lot of that is driver and conditions as well as tires. NOW, the BMW also has traction control which could help the out of the hole, start. all other speed ranges are almost identical to the porsche GTS (ie 20-60, 60-100mph, etc)
AND, why wouldnt they be. both have the same rear wheel Hp /weight!!

I run 1:38.9 at laguna with a stock S4 gutted and a set of headers, making my car about as powerful as a GTS. It runs faster than a top pro, max angelleli, in a porsche GT3 on the same tires!!! (1:39.6) why???? near the same weight, near the same hp and near the same set up. (just the S4 is really old and gutted to match the nice new car weight of a GT3. Gut the GT3 and it would be much faster, but you get the point) If i had a GTS to start, it would be even faster. Wider, bigger motor, bigger brakes.

anytime you want to bring a stock M5 to any track, or find a time of any M5 at any track and post it, that will be great. Then, I will take any S4 or GTS and equal it without issue. All i ask, is that it is a stock to stock comparison and the S4 or GTS gets the same tires as the BMW. OR, you can find ANY modified M5, post a time and ill put the weight in my modified 928 and beat that time as well. Ive already run a 1:50.3 at sears point at a 3250lbs with a passenger. You wont find an M5 that has run even 3 seconds as close to this.

Now, you think you are going to wave "bye bye" at any speed test. Com'mon, you are comparing two cars within .5 seconds 0-60. and in a quarter mile, the spec for the BMW is 13.3 and i think the GTS is 13.5. so in a quarter , again the stock cars are close. BUT ALSO , AGAIN, the GTS stock, has tiny rear tires. put 275s on the rear and a lot changes.

Its not a love for the car that im fueled by here. Its a love for reality.
Ive been doing this a long time (racing) I can show you several miatas that can put down you M5 on a race track! I know the formula that Speed GT uses to equalize cars. trust me, this is not magic. same HP to weight ratio cars will run near the same time, no matter what motortrend says! BUT, 500 less lbs will DEFINITELY help any car in this kind of (run circles around someone) comparison. Now, are we talking handling and braking , as well as straight line???

Summary: BMW has 50 more hp and 500lbs more weight than a porsche 928 GTS. it is taller and narrower by 5". if you do any race prep reading, each 2" wider is like lowering the car by 1", and do you know how that can effect handling? the GTS suspension allows advantages on the race track vs a strut set up of the BMW. the GTS brakes would (big red 4 piston calipers) vs the front and rear single piston , small calipers, would allow for much better braking in any type of track comparison.

bench race or actual race, the only thing the bmw might have an advantage in, is off the line, 0-60. put them on a track, and the porsche GTS will run circles around the M5. (literally)

mk

edit: remember, the BMW has a better c/d of only .31, vs the 928 of near .34. if the GTS is near 180mph, and the BMW is near 50hp more, how much faster can it go? its a simple formula. does 50hp buy you 20mph??? remember hp required goes up with the cube of speed! 9% faster speed = 30% hp increase required. in other words, the BMW would have to have 450 rwhp * or near 500hp. Hmmmmmm , funny, doent the e60 have this and wow, its max speed is calcualted to be 202. pretty darn close

*based on 928 drag figures

Another reality check here. If you were going to pay me money to run GRAND AM CUP GS and they allowed older stock cars. which car would i pick as a racer? i would pick the 928 over the m5 in a heart beat. any pro racer would make the same decision based on the performance facts. This is kind of like when i race against Z06 vets. they are 405 hp rated, and pumped up to 395rwhp with built motors. they weigh 3250lbs on track and i weight 3000lbs on track, but i only have 310-320rwhp. why is it such a close race???? we are talking a '02 corvette z06!!!! I have a set of headers!
Thats reality!

BrettStrikes

Makes no sense Iceman...if you have a faster car than the GTS...and mildly set it up...you are still going to be faster....the slalom speed for the GTS is 58.3 while the M5 is 64.7....how can it handle worse?..the weight is offset by superior handling....less unsprung weight maybe?..its obvious that the extra weight plays no part in its superior handling when compared to the GTS....

SteveG

Brett: On a track, you know the ones with curves and hairpins. I like the 928, GTS or otherwise. I've not been on a track with either, but I'll take CG and Weissach. If I get the chance to do a personal comparison I jump at it. I'm' not trashing the beemer, a very nice car, but a boxcar. I know which I like better.

RyanPerrella

Can you post some pics of the interior of the car? I am surpised this is still for sale

BrettStrikes

I love my 928 also...but I just think that for the 30-40K...I would prefer an M5 over a GTS...as far as for sale...there is usually at least 30 E39's for sale on ebay at a time...

IcemanG17

Brett
Don't get me wrong...I do like the V8 M5's and they are a bargin right now too......but in terms on road course performance they are nowhere near a mildly setup 928 for WAY less $$$$$..... MK pretty much explained it..... All 928's are wide and low...have adjustable coil overs with powerful brakes and fit wide tires easily.....everything you need for a racecar....

Lets do this.....bring ANY M5 to a power biased track like Thunderhill.....run against Scotts 16V 1982, giving more advantage to the M5....the M5 will get destroyed........by a 1982....... I think Scotts has at most $10k total in this 928.....Or if you want a more fair comparison run the same M5 against a full weight 928 5 speed with bigger wheels-tires to make it even.....let MK drive......again the M5 gets destroyed...... Shoot even let MK drive them both to make it even.....either way the M5 looses.....

One thing I failed to understand until I started driving my shark on the track is there is more to performance than numbers published by car magazines...... At my 1st DE I thought for sure I would get smoked by any new porsche....since they all outperform on paper my old stock 928 automatic.....then I found myself chasing down and passing ALL of them...you name it.....I'm no race driver either, this was my 1st time on the big track! The best "Battle" I had was with a 2005 911 turbo S cab......he would win on the straights (444hp helps)...but I would catch him under braking and kill him in the corners......

Does it makes sense....no....that car should crush me......a 6 speed 444hp turbo S.....thats a low 12 1/4 mile car that will do around 190mph bone stock....with PCCB brakes and huge tires 315's in the rear......but I kept up with him......

mark kibort

Brett, read the first sentence of my last long response. In a nut shell, you are getting caught up in the marketing specs!! do you know what is the single most important factor in lap time for a race car? TIRES!

I have many ideas of why the M5 vs the GTS has a faster slalom speed. the course, the surface, the driver, the tires, and set up.

If i was going to be paid to run a slalom and a fast lap with either car, i would pick the one with the best mix of HP and weight. 500lbs is worth a lot in handling and in acceleration for a given platform. There is no unsprun weight issues here. these factors are rounding errors at best. main factors are weight, width and hight, CG and tires. (with driver being a HUGE portion of that). just because even the same driver runs both cars (best case and unlikely), doesnt mean you get a good comparison, but at least that becomes a more fair one.

There is nothing better about the M5 over the 928 as far as handling, in fact, its proven quite the contrary in my racing experience with e30s, e36 and e48 professionally prepared M3s! i wonder why???? the 928 just is a better platform out of the box. dont get me wrong, the M3s are incredible machines, but they have to have something radically changed to be fast.
As iceman says, the bigger brakes of the GTS, lighter weight , and more optimized suspension design, is just plain better for racing.

Now, for the money and as a street car, that would be an entirely different debate. I for one, would be torn between the two. I like the bigger car for around town , but also like the layed back seating position for the 928 for long drives. lots of trade offs.

lets get one thing straight. using published stats are very subjective. It is for relative comparison purposes only. There are clear reasons why a M5 at 4000lbs vs a 928GTS at 3500lbs can run a 4.8 vs a 5.5 0-60 run. Tires, traction control, and driver. Look at the stats of a GTS with the same tires, and maybe after 20mph to 100mph and the story would be different as there is only a 50hp diff.

bottomline, you are not going to be "running circles" around anyone. they are both great cars, and different. But, if you want to find the one that is fastest in all areas, like what is needed on a track, the 928 GTS will be better suited and this is easy to prove.

step back and think about me getting in an M5 and running a lap at laguna seca. Then, getting in a 928 GTS with the same size tires an running a lap.
What would you bet the time differences would be? Do you really think a M5 would turn a better lap time at a 500lb greater weight and tiny brake calipers up front? No one in their right mind would think so!

mk



.

Panzer9

I thought the same thing about a 400 hp car hitting ( for all intents, & purposes) 200 mph. That stratosphere is reserved for the 500 hp club- ie. NEW M5/M6.

TAREK

I never thought I'd participate in this type of debate. I'm a HUGE fan of both cars, and do believe the M5 would do better around a race track in the hands of an average (or below) driver like myself. I've never driven the M5, but owned an M6 that I drove like I stole. It shares the same wheelbase and suspension as the M5. I've seen many M5's recover from a tail spin, while just about every single 928 that I've seen (or experienced) lose traction in a turn, could not recover as cleanly.

I also believe that the M5 is more of a race car by design (although based on 4 door sedan), while the 928 is a lot of things, but not a race car out of the box

If you split hairs over tire sizes and conditions of tests and specs, then you're desperate to make a case. It's ok to admit it guys. Some cars are faster than our 928's. Without digressong, you might want to race a new Honda civic and you'll see what I mean

Again, don't shoot me, because I love boith. I'm just a realist about the M5 superior muscle and nimbleness

RyanPerrella

Tarek I completely disagree with you.

My experience is with E34 M5's but The M5 is hardly a race car out of the box, and certianly no more sporty then a 928 of any vintage. The M5 will always have strong limitations because its a spec'ed out saloon. Its got a hot engine and firmer suspension, but the car (5 series in general) was designed first and for most to sell a huge number of units and appeal to a mass audience. The 928 was, as we should all know, designed by Porsche Engineers with a specific intent and purpose. What that is i dont really know but I tell you its far more then just a hi power saloon with huge brakes and a great (for its class) suspension.

To call the M5 a race car out of the box i think is really overstating it, and to say its more at home as a race car then a 928 is also really pushing it if you ask me. The 928 was never an all out racer like a GT3, but the fact the Kibort and Anderson race these things to this day and so far as i know are incredibly competitive should tell you a thing or two about the prowess of a 928.

RyanPerrella

Of course your opinion is just as valid as mine, but i do completely disagree.

How they hell did this turn into an M5 v 928 debate anyway when out man was just trying to let one of us steal his GTS?

Kevin in Atlanta

What he said.

I have a line on a 2001 BMW 540i Dinan for $13.5k.