Carlos,

Not everyone is concerned about the resale of their cars. If so, you wouldn't have many restored or highly modified cars on the road because most restorations and modifications cost much more than the car will ever be worth.
What do you call small increase in performance 100 hp, 200 hp, or ??? The returns on the modifications to a 928 are not small. Just ask the guys who simply added headers to their 928s or try the supercharged ones. The 928 engine will last a whole lot longer than a Chevy small block and I would even venture to say 3 to 4 times longer without a rebuild. My 928's stock engine after 250,000 miles and 20 years dynoed at the same hp that it had when it left the factory. How many small block engines do that? Granted, I don't have anything against a Chevy engine or even a Chevy engine in a 928, but don't knock the 928 motor when you have never dabbled in any performance R&D on the motor. In no way do I think a Chevy motor is better or capable of any more hp than a 928 motor. An engine is an air pump the more air you can pump in and out the more hp you will have. There is no comparison on the longevity of an iron block versus a siliconized aluminum 928 block. How much money do you think it costs to get the new Chevrolet Corvette(LS-1) small block to 500 hp? Try around $23k to $25k from Lingenfelter. What about 440 hp? Well, those modifications will run you $14,920 + tax at Lingenfelter. I use Lingenfelter's name because he does high quality work and uses high quality parts much like any experienced 928 performance engine builder uses. I don't think any horsepower that will last more than 20,000 miles comes cheap and that includes the Chevy small block! Do your homework Carlos!

Jim Nowak

 

Yeah... I don't know Carlos. I can see what you're saying from a strict performance vs. cash standpoint, I guess, especially if we define it as 15 grand for modest performance gains. But what I like about my '81 is that it's unique and it's Porsche, and to me that gives it a certain feel - introducing such a foreign element into the car would change the feel for me. I haven't even been able to pull the trigger on new seats, still thinking about getting the old ones recovered!

I don't race,and so am not fanatical about the performance output - having said, that I don't enjoy having my butt handed to me by a 16 year old kid in a Civic with an 8" diameter exhaust.

Somewhere inbetween the race track and not seeing that kid's exhaust is where I'd like to be. I'm not too worried about it if I spend some money along the way, even if I know that money isn't coming back in terms of resale - hell, I guess I jumped off that cliff when I bought the car in the first place.

 

Jim,

My '80 928S Euro dyno'd stock last year with 266 to the rear wheels. I don't have the headers, but do have a borla ss exhaust without cat.

I believe David Lloyd's car currently has a 5ltr block with his stock heads, but the Euro S's intake. He has dyno'd at 291 to the rear wheels.

I am trying to identify the budget required to build a motor that could make the 928 competitive in the GT2 class of PCA Club Racing. Sounds like $15k may not be enough, if you "only" get 340rwhp. Of course maybe that is enough.

I know Devek's white car, and Mark Anderson's 928 race car are reported to have much more hp, but of course the costs could be much higher.

I am not interested in a Chevy motor since it wouldn't be allowed in PCA Club Racing.

Thanks for the information!

 

$25k for a small block Chevy? You could buy Jeff Gordons motor for not much more & it's 800 hp. Lingenfelter can't give his motors away in Pro Stock truck. He's 2 or more tenths back. If someone will give him $25k for 500 hp then good for him. However, you or I can buy a zz430 crate motor, 430 hp for $6500. With some connections, you can get more than 500 hp for the same money.
So lets see, Motor, $6500, Kit, $900, Exhaust, $1000, Miscellaneous $2000 all that fun with the Russian girls, PRICELESS.

 

Carlos,
I did some checking on G.M.'s ZZ-430 motor, and it has been discontinued. G.M. only made 430 zz-430 engines and each one has its serial number machined into its valve covers. If you can find one of these motors for $6,500, I suggest you buy one. I have seen people demanding $13,000 for this engine. Check out this site www.paceparts.com/zz430_crate_engine.htm and read more about this engine. This motor is pretty trick and it will cost you some cash to get that last 70 horsepower you are refering to as easy hp and once you get to 500 hp you won't drive it on the street because it will stall below 2500 rpm or you will have to use alcohol as fuel so it won't detonate.
OK, lets say you have spent the additional money to get to 500hp you have spent $10,000, and the motor is not in the car yet and you have a car that you can't run in any PCA club races. Save your money and buy a supercharger kit from FAST and spend $5,000 total and you will have around 400 hp at your rear wheels or approx. 500 hp at the flywheel with 20% drive-line loss. I have seen many Chevy 550 hp motors that when placed in the car and run on the chassis dyno they get 320hp of that 550hp to the rear wheels. The Devek white car gets 450 hp to the rear wheels and its not even a Chevy motor.

You can get real power from a 928 motor. Power that will last and power that can be used on the street without loss of driveability.


Jim Nowak

 

Jim, where do you get your information? 500 hp is undrivable? Alcohol? Serial # on the valve cover? $13,000 for a zz430?

Here's the deal. For $13k I can have 600, yes that's 600, dyno sheets in hand, streetable, pump gas, reliable, turbo strapping, small block HP. There will be enough cash left over to put the motor in the car, install custom exhaust & import maybe only 1 Russian girl.

Now for performace, George has a motor similar to this in his 911. Fast doesn't have a car that can stay in the same zip code. From a standing start, the white car cant cary enough gas to catch him. This car is reliable, streetable and ready to prove the point to any non believers with cash to wager (loose).

And last, yes you can make hp with a 928 motor but to make this kind of power, you better have access to Bill Gates' checking account. For the rest of us that live in the real world with mortgages & jobs, the small block is an alternative that's hard to beat.

 

Carlos & Snowball,

If you guys are so unhappy with your 928s then you need to sell them or do whatever you need to do that makes you happy.
Why the hell would someone need to go to another country to find a woman? If you can't find a good woman in the U.S. its probably caused by a fundamental character flaw! But then again, different strokes for different folks and if that makes you happy then go right ahead.
Please, put that 600 hp motor in your car and get it over with already.
Carlos, I've given you a link to read on the ZZ-430 motor it is clear that you did not do your homework once again. I will give you another link to where you can actually buy a ZZ-430 motor. Check out www.boss-hoss.com/index2.html I'm not saying that this is the only place you can buy one, but it's the only place I could find one that's available. I'f you can build a Chevy 350 cu. in. 600hp motor that's readily streetable on pump (93-94 octane and without nitrous or a blower) and will last for more than 50,000 miles please give the engineers at Katech Engine Development, Inc. a call. They are the builders of the Corvette C5-R motor. The motor cost them $60,000 plus the cost of the engine management system (probably another $15,000). That engine produces 610 hp & 570 lb-ft out of 426 cu. in., but they are running a restrictor plate that keeps the motor from producing 668 hp. You can read about this engine and the C5-R in the June 2001 issue of Road & Track.
Carlos, you talk about your nephew's, George, car producing all that horsepower, but I seem to recall in a past web posting that he sunk some major money in that motor and was way more than $13,000.

Carolos it doesn't take a multi-billionaire to make a 928 very fast. Making any engine produce the serious horsepower numbers you are throwing around and that will last more than 50,000 miles will be expensive to build.
Carlos, if you are coming to a pissing match, please get your facts straight or provide a link to a web-site that can back your claims. If this horsepower is so easy to come by in a Chevy 350 then it should be very easy to back your claims. Please enlighten me to the Zen like ways of the Chevy 350 master mechanic.

Jim Nowak

 

Glad to ablige Jim, George's engine was built by Kenny Lafferty of Cam Motion, supplier of cams to Bob Panella, Dick Maskin, John Force, Joe Amato & many others. The heads are Chevrolet fast burn built by Larry Meaux, Meaux Racing Heads. George asked for about 550 HP because he felt like the drive train would not take much more than that. I have seen the dyno sheets, the power is for real. 600 HP from 350 inches (not 427) on 93 octane Exxon is there for the asking. If Katech or whoever spent 60k to figure out how to do it that's their problem. Jeff Gordon produces 800 for a few hours at a time every weekend. Ready to really be sick, on VP 16 and the big blue bottle, these motors will produce 1200 hp. Now go do your "homework".

The referrence to the Russian women was a fecetious statement intended to illustrate the absurd costs for the performance improvemnt. Sorry you didnt catch that.

The 13k figure on George's motor was from some idiot who was trying to figure it out, not from George.

Next if its so damn easy to make a 928 fast, show me one. I havent seen one yet. George would knock the glass loose on the white car!

PS if you want a ZZ 430 call Scoggins & Dickey.
Hope this helps.

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: Carlos ]

 

As someone who found the perfect woman in Athens Greece, you are absolutely correct to say "different strokes for different folks".

With regard to a hybrid 928, I prefer mine stock. It's just right for my needs. Besides, if I modify it with a Chevy engine, the PCA Region I'm in won't let me play in any of their fun activities.

Bottom line, if I wanted a Chevy engine in my car, I would have bought a Chevy. Come to think of it, I once did. Maybe that's why I wouldn't do it again?!

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: Ed Ruiz ]

 

Jim & ED I bought my zz430 from Scoggin - Dickey Chevrolet for $6500 from Mr. Cary Franklin 1-800-456-0211. I wanted to go faster so I had the motor re done my Mr. Kenny Lafferty at cam motion 225-667-1396 in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I then sent the heads, intake to Mr. Larry Meaux of meaux racing heads to put them on kill. We then put the new motor design on the dyno and by making cam adjustment's we tuned the power. As Carlos said I only wanted 500-550hp due to trans and clutch holding up to the power I could of had 600hp with just a cam change. I found that I spent after all said and done a total of 13K. I took out all the parts that came with the zz430 rods, pistons,intake,carb and headers and put in full race proven parts that are made for the extra 300hp of the spray. Chevrolet sells a zz4 motor for 3k that makes 365hp carb to pan thats fast burn heads and all I think thats a steal of a deal since the zo6 vette has 385hp and it cost 50k. The bottom line is talk is cheap and it's free hp cost and it speaks loud and clear.


George George's 911-V8 Carrera

 

George:
In the PCA Region I'm in, your 911 V8 would not be allowed to participate in ANY PCA driving events. Although I'm sure you probably don't care, for me - it matters.

I know of several folks who have installed hybrids in their Porsche. I know others who have installed Superchargers or Turbos too. They obviously are looking for every extra bit of HP and Torque they can afford. I am not.

I'm very satisfied with the 928s stock HP and Torque. As a result of keeping the car basically stock, the only way for me to be faster on the track or in an autocross is for ME to drive smoother, and (hopefully) better.

Moreover, at the end of the track or autocross day, I can just drive home without fear of failing a smog or safety test. I can use pump gas without fear of detonation. From all accounts, I can expect the stock engine to last 300k miles, maybe more. I'm happy and satisfied with that. YMMV.

 

Ed, you opinions are certainly valid. My original point was that to advise someone, as was being done in this thread, to spend $15k for 50 or MAYBE 100 hp increase was not the kind of advise one friend should give to another. Now if someone is having a problem w/ money piling up too deep at home and needs a place to **** some away then fine. But not for me. There are much better ways to enhance a 928 than spending $150 or $300 per hp for some extra pep.

 

Jim,

My '80 928S Euro dyno'd stock last year with 266 to the rear wheels. I don't have the headers, but do have a borla ss exhaust without cat.

I believe David Lloyd's car currently has a 5ltr block with his stock heads, but the Euro S's intake. He has dyno'd at 291 to the rear wheels.

I am trying to identify the budget required to build a motor that could make the 928 competitive in the GT2 class of PCA Club Racing. Sounds like $15k may not be enough, if you "only" get 340rwhp. Of course maybe that is enough.

I know Devek's white car, and Mark Anderson's 928 race car are reported to have much more hp, but of course the costs could be much higher.

I am not interested in a Chevy motor since it wouldn't be allowed in PCA Club Racing.

Thanks for the information!

 

George,

Are you getting 550 hp normally aspirated or do you need the bottle to get to that number. If not, what did the car dyno with the spray? In the $13,000 that you spent does that include exhaust, custom headers to fit in the engine bay, engine management so you won't blow the engine, modifications to make that motor fit in a Porsche. Probably not! Lets do some calculations.
$13,000 motor
$1,800 kit to install motor in a Porsche
$1,000 custom headers to fit in Porsche
$2,500 electronic engine management
$3,000 to make all accessories work
$3,000 labor on installation of engine and fuel management
Conservative total cost: $24,000
O.K. what if it only cost $13,000 total? Thats still not cheap horsepower. Carlos, did you look at the web sites I posted for you? I didn't make up those web-sites. A true ZZ-430 motor will cost you some bucks, but I'm sure you can build one yourself. The "true" ZZ-430 motor was a very limited production engine.
Carlos, I would let George fight his own battles with the white car... Truth is "talk is cheap" and unless George goes west and runs in some of these races that's exactly what it is, just a bunch of talk. If he doesn't like running his car over 200 mph for 20 miles, then he can go to some track events. Truth is, there are many very highly modified chevy's in these races that do not run like the 928, and they lose very frequently. A 928 "smacks that Chevy ***" and drives home after the race is done. I'm sure there are many people who would love to see him track his car a go against some of the track prepped 928s, 911s, 944s, etc....
For $13,000-$15,000 Devek will build a motor that produces the same power as George's motor and probably more considering George has never run his across a chassis dyno so we really don't know what that car puts to the pavement. Power to the ground is the only power that matters. Any car can add nitrous and produce big power and like Carlos say's some of these Chevy motors can put down 1,200 hp that will hold up 1/4 of a mile.
I don't have anything against a chevy motor and I will probably put one in a 928 someday, but I don't expect that obtaining the hp. that I want will be cheap in that conversion. But for now, I am exploring the potential of the two-valve 928 and I won't spend more than $15,000 in the process. If my engine isn't 550 hp. I won't cry. I won't be discouraged. I'll add a supercharger and get to the magical number that makes me happy. Carlos,& George you have helped me illustrate that building a 500+ horsepower motor is not cheap.

Thank you

Jim Nowak

 

"The White Car" that devek has only puts down 365.7hp and 391.4ft/lb of torque at the rear wheels.

Here is the dyno.

That really isn't much for a 6.0L engine with "big valve heads, GT cam, DEVEK headers, custom 4" exhaust, 30 lb injectors & rising rate fuel pressure regulator, & more (but factory chip!)"

I got all of this off thier site www.devek.net

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: Tabor Kelly ]