upper ball joint repair kit from 928 motorsports and big brake upgrade
11-08-2007, 05:41 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
upper ball joint repair kit from 928 motorsports and big brake upgrade
There has been virtually no discussion of the upper ball joint rebuild kit from 928 motorsports (or at least none that I've found.) So I bought the kit to go along with my big brake upgrade on my '85. I had planned to take pics and do a write up, but honestly, the instructions that came with the ball joint kit are very well written. So I'll just touch on a few things and add my comments.
In step 4 they use a pickle fork to separate the upper ball joint. They suggest a ball joint press that works like a screw down tie-rod separator as an alternative. I use a method I learned on miata.net. Basically you loosen the bolt on the ball joint and hit the side of the spindle with a ball peen hammer. The area I am referring to as the side is the area where the ball joint runs through the spindle. A few hard whacks and it should pop loose with no damage to the ball joint.
In step 5 (picture 7) they use a dremel to cut in get behind the retaining clip. I used a drill with a metal bit. I positioned the drill so the bit was resting on top of the ring and drilled into the control arm. Since the retaining ring is steel and the control arm is aluminum, you'll drill in easily while barely scratching the ring. This is what you want because you need to reuse the ring and don't want to damage it.
They mention using a wooden dowel to drive the brass bushing in place if needed. Skip it. Press it in with your hands as best as you can, place the pin in, and drive it home with a nylon faced hammer.
To "press" it altogether the show a few different methods. I have a ball joint press that is essentially a heavy duty C-clamp with a hole at the bottom of the "C" instead of a flat spot.
The zerk fitting is a nice touch but I was only able to get about half a squirt of grease in before I encountered absolute resistance. I'll try again in a few hundred miles after things have a little bit of wear on them.
The enclosed epoxy is a great idea for keeping moisture out. It seems to cure very rapidly (20 minutes or so.)
I wasn't impressed with the poly boots that came with the kit. I went ahead and used them, but I think that the rubber boots probably work just as well and fit better.
If the boots on your upper ball joints have torn recently, you can probably get away with just replacing the boots. If they look like they tore about 5 years ago, you need to rebuild them.
It took less then an hour to rebuild both. The part that is engineered to fail early to get you to buy a new Porsche is the plastic cup inside the ball joint. The kit from 928 motorsports contains a brass cup. On the driver's side, the plastic cup was broken. The passenger side cup was still intact, but once you take things apart, rebuilding becomes mandatory.
I also have some comments on the big brake upgrade.
It's very intuitive so you can't really screw it up. There was discussion about a year ago regarding clearance issues between the rotor and the lower ball joint. I took note of that and checked mine when I installed everything. It is true that the clearance is minimal at best. But at the same time, the rotor should not come into contact with it. I would speculate that the only way for the rotor to contact the lower ball joint is if the wheel bearings are bad or improperly adjusted. So I would suggest that it is considered imperative to have your front wheel bearings properly adjusted for this upgrade.
I opted for new rubber brake hoses even though the price is the same for stainless lines. I'm not racing the car, and most people who make the upgrade to stainless are taking off lines that are decades old with countless miles. Based on that, of course there will be a night and day difference. I'd like to see the difference between new rubber, and stainless. I'm sure one exists, but probably not as dramatic.
I use a motiv power bleeder for bleeding the lines as do many others around here. When starting out with calipers that are bone dry plus new lines, this tool is great for getting out about 95% of the air. It's been my experience that the best way to get the remaining 5% out is to do it the old fashioned way. I use a cheap gadget available at the local parts store that costs about 5$-6$. So cheap I consider them disposable and throw them out after one or two uses. It's basically a small bottle with a magnet that you place above the caliper. A hose runs from it down to the bleed screw on the caliper. It even comes with a fitting that allows you to attach it to 2 bleeder screws at one time. So I hooked it up to both screws, take the cap off the master cylinder, open the bleeders, and pump the brakes a few times. This method has proven to be very effective for me.
All of the vendors now offer "big brake" upgrades in one form or another these days. I went with S4 brakes all the way around. I scored a good deal on e-bay and got a complete set of calipers for less then $500. I got the spindles and adapters from BrendanC (I hope you don't pack your bearings on your race car like you did on these.) The total cost for those items was about $270. The most expensive part of this was obviously the new rotors, pads, and lines. I went with cross-drilled zimmermans all the way around, and mintex pads. The hoses are ATE. ATE is the OEM supplier for Porsche brake hoses and the master cylinder. They also make the proportioning valve, and early-on they made the calipers. They're about 1/3 of the cost of genuine Porsche hoses, but they're the identical ones. You could try to save some money by finding used rotors but let's face it, that is a HUGE gamble. As far as used pads go, I'm sure it's been done, but not by me. The only way I could have saved money on the pads and rotors was by going with some of the vendors from e-bay. When I first got the car last year I bought a set rotors, pagid pads, and two front wear sensors from an e-bay vendor in SoCal. It was the right stuff, and it all worked. It was here in a week and the price was great, but I opted for a known vendor this time around.
A few words on the pad sensors. VENDERS PAY ATTENTION. The brake set I got last year included new wear sensors. I transferred them to the new pads. I bought new rear sensors last week because the ones on the car were broken up little nubs. The new sensors had wiring connectors that are intended for the S4 and later models. The front sensors from the pre-86.5 models will work with the Brembo style pads. On the rear, I don't know because my original wear sensors were in poor condition. I made my S4 rear sensors work for now by cutting off the S4 plug and splicing them to the old wires I cut off of the old sensors. Not only do the S4 sensors have the improper plug, the length of wire attached to them is way too short. So vendors, do us a favor and take a new sensor for a pre 86.5 model and see if it will fit the pads used on the S4. The splicing works for now, but it's only a matter of time before corrosion gets the better of it.
I didn't get pad dampeners to silence the brakes so my rears were making a lot of noise despite a liberal application of disc brake quiet. The noise came from the rear which is where noise usually comes from because the rears don't clamp down as hard as the fronts. The reason shims and sprays work to quiet brakes is because the noise actually comes from the back side of the pads. It's caused by vibration between the pad and the piston. So I had to get some shims because the "disc brake quiet" spray on it's own was insufficient. The Porsche shims cost about $40 for the rear set and it contains 8 (1 for each piston on the rear.) I took a gamble and ordered a set of shims from Advance Auto for $10. Instead of using two shims per pad, the set from Raybestos uses 1 large shim per pad. The length was correct, but there was a large tab that would have interfered with the pad retainer present. A pair of sheet metal snips took care of the problem. I put the shims on the pads, sprayed some more silencer stuff on them and reinstalled them. During my first drive they were quiet. We'll see if this holds up.
And finally, one glitch I had. I'm still using the stock 16X7 manhole covers. Regardless of which vendor you choose, the adapters, calipers, and need for early spindles is all the same. I was under the impression that clearance would be a problem for the phone dials, but not manhole covers. This is not the case. I had to buy a set of 6mm spacers to get my front wheels to fit. A new set of wheels and tires is a nice (albeit pricey) alternative. Next year.
Hopefully this provides some details and sorry for making it so long winded.
Here is the link to the big brake/ball joint interference debate:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...+brake+upgrade
In step 4 they use a pickle fork to separate the upper ball joint. They suggest a ball joint press that works like a screw down tie-rod separator as an alternative. I use a method I learned on miata.net. Basically you loosen the bolt on the ball joint and hit the side of the spindle with a ball peen hammer. The area I am referring to as the side is the area where the ball joint runs through the spindle. A few hard whacks and it should pop loose with no damage to the ball joint.
In step 5 (picture 7) they use a dremel to cut in get behind the retaining clip. I used a drill with a metal bit. I positioned the drill so the bit was resting on top of the ring and drilled into the control arm. Since the retaining ring is steel and the control arm is aluminum, you'll drill in easily while barely scratching the ring. This is what you want because you need to reuse the ring and don't want to damage it.
They mention using a wooden dowel to drive the brass bushing in place if needed. Skip it. Press it in with your hands as best as you can, place the pin in, and drive it home with a nylon faced hammer.
To "press" it altogether the show a few different methods. I have a ball joint press that is essentially a heavy duty C-clamp with a hole at the bottom of the "C" instead of a flat spot.
The zerk fitting is a nice touch but I was only able to get about half a squirt of grease in before I encountered absolute resistance. I'll try again in a few hundred miles after things have a little bit of wear on them.
The enclosed epoxy is a great idea for keeping moisture out. It seems to cure very rapidly (20 minutes or so.)
I wasn't impressed with the poly boots that came with the kit. I went ahead and used them, but I think that the rubber boots probably work just as well and fit better.
If the boots on your upper ball joints have torn recently, you can probably get away with just replacing the boots. If they look like they tore about 5 years ago, you need to rebuild them.
It took less then an hour to rebuild both. The part that is engineered to fail early to get you to buy a new Porsche is the plastic cup inside the ball joint. The kit from 928 motorsports contains a brass cup. On the driver's side, the plastic cup was broken. The passenger side cup was still intact, but once you take things apart, rebuilding becomes mandatory.
I also have some comments on the big brake upgrade.
It's very intuitive so you can't really screw it up. There was discussion about a year ago regarding clearance issues between the rotor and the lower ball joint. I took note of that and checked mine when I installed everything. It is true that the clearance is minimal at best. But at the same time, the rotor should not come into contact with it. I would speculate that the only way for the rotor to contact the lower ball joint is if the wheel bearings are bad or improperly adjusted. So I would suggest that it is considered imperative to have your front wheel bearings properly adjusted for this upgrade.
I opted for new rubber brake hoses even though the price is the same for stainless lines. I'm not racing the car, and most people who make the upgrade to stainless are taking off lines that are decades old with countless miles. Based on that, of course there will be a night and day difference. I'd like to see the difference between new rubber, and stainless. I'm sure one exists, but probably not as dramatic.
I use a motiv power bleeder for bleeding the lines as do many others around here. When starting out with calipers that are bone dry plus new lines, this tool is great for getting out about 95% of the air. It's been my experience that the best way to get the remaining 5% out is to do it the old fashioned way. I use a cheap gadget available at the local parts store that costs about 5$-6$. So cheap I consider them disposable and throw them out after one or two uses. It's basically a small bottle with a magnet that you place above the caliper. A hose runs from it down to the bleed screw on the caliper. It even comes with a fitting that allows you to attach it to 2 bleeder screws at one time. So I hooked it up to both screws, take the cap off the master cylinder, open the bleeders, and pump the brakes a few times. This method has proven to be very effective for me.
All of the vendors now offer "big brake" upgrades in one form or another these days. I went with S4 brakes all the way around. I scored a good deal on e-bay and got a complete set of calipers for less then $500. I got the spindles and adapters from BrendanC (I hope you don't pack your bearings on your race car like you did on these.) The total cost for those items was about $270. The most expensive part of this was obviously the new rotors, pads, and lines. I went with cross-drilled zimmermans all the way around, and mintex pads. The hoses are ATE. ATE is the OEM supplier for Porsche brake hoses and the master cylinder. They also make the proportioning valve, and early-on they made the calipers. They're about 1/3 of the cost of genuine Porsche hoses, but they're the identical ones. You could try to save some money by finding used rotors but let's face it, that is a HUGE gamble. As far as used pads go, I'm sure it's been done, but not by me. The only way I could have saved money on the pads and rotors was by going with some of the vendors from e-bay. When I first got the car last year I bought a set rotors, pagid pads, and two front wear sensors from an e-bay vendor in SoCal. It was the right stuff, and it all worked. It was here in a week and the price was great, but I opted for a known vendor this time around.
A few words on the pad sensors. VENDERS PAY ATTENTION. The brake set I got last year included new wear sensors. I transferred them to the new pads. I bought new rear sensors last week because the ones on the car were broken up little nubs. The new sensors had wiring connectors that are intended for the S4 and later models. The front sensors from the pre-86.5 models will work with the Brembo style pads. On the rear, I don't know because my original wear sensors were in poor condition. I made my S4 rear sensors work for now by cutting off the S4 plug and splicing them to the old wires I cut off of the old sensors. Not only do the S4 sensors have the improper plug, the length of wire attached to them is way too short. So vendors, do us a favor and take a new sensor for a pre 86.5 model and see if it will fit the pads used on the S4. The splicing works for now, but it's only a matter of time before corrosion gets the better of it.
I didn't get pad dampeners to silence the brakes so my rears were making a lot of noise despite a liberal application of disc brake quiet. The noise came from the rear which is where noise usually comes from because the rears don't clamp down as hard as the fronts. The reason shims and sprays work to quiet brakes is because the noise actually comes from the back side of the pads. It's caused by vibration between the pad and the piston. So I had to get some shims because the "disc brake quiet" spray on it's own was insufficient. The Porsche shims cost about $40 for the rear set and it contains 8 (1 for each piston on the rear.) I took a gamble and ordered a set of shims from Advance Auto for $10. Instead of using two shims per pad, the set from Raybestos uses 1 large shim per pad. The length was correct, but there was a large tab that would have interfered with the pad retainer present. A pair of sheet metal snips took care of the problem. I put the shims on the pads, sprayed some more silencer stuff on them and reinstalled them. During my first drive they were quiet. We'll see if this holds up.
And finally, one glitch I had. I'm still using the stock 16X7 manhole covers. Regardless of which vendor you choose, the adapters, calipers, and need for early spindles is all the same. I was under the impression that clearance would be a problem for the phone dials, but not manhole covers. This is not the case. I had to buy a set of 6mm spacers to get my front wheels to fit. A new set of wheels and tires is a nice (albeit pricey) alternative. Next year.
Hopefully this provides some details and sorry for making it so long winded.
Here is the link to the big brake/ball joint interference debate:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...+brake+upgrade
11-08-2007, 06:01 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Ditto on the ball joint kit, just finished it last week. Drill bit is the way to go to get behind / remove the original retaining ring. New retaining spiral ring could have had a slightly larger OD. Am hunting for better rubber boots to retrofit. I bought a $129 12 ton press at HF, removed the arms and did the rebuild off the car, as other suspension work was also underway.
Thanks for the info on the big brake conversion. Some day...
Thanks for the info on the big brake conversion. Some day...
11-08-2007, 06:13 PM
#3
Craic Head
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JHowell,
Great write-up and thanks, this is in my near future. Seriously 1 hour for both of them? That's cool. Mine is a DD and I know it looks like a simple task, but you know how these things go once you take out a critical part. I'm glad it was so easy and thanks for the tips.
Great write-up and thanks, this is in my near future. Seriously 1 hour for both of them? That's cool. Mine is a DD and I know it looks like a simple task, but you know how these things go once you take out a critical part. I'm glad it was so easy and thanks for the tips.
11-08-2007, 06:24 PM
#4
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I, too, did a big black S4 brake upgrade to my 80 Euro.
However, I purchased an entire front suspension system from an S4, so I would not have to worry with aluminum ball joints and such.
Some issues I found (not in any particular order):
1. when separating the ball joints and tie rods ends, you can use a pickle fork (as I did), but you will more than likely tear the dust covers---didn't matter to me 'cause I figured them to be pretty cheap if I found a buyer for the removed parts.
2. on the rear brakes, you do not need any fancy adapters, just a steel washer for proper spacing of the caliper (thanks to Jim Bailey--928 Int'L for this tip).
3. when reinstalling the calipers, the FWM's call for torquing the attaching bolts to 62-65 lbs. Trust me, hand tightening--no matter how big your arms are--won't do it. Use a torque wrench, and re-torque them a few weeks later just to make sure. I also used Locktite on the bolts, although the FWM's do not call for it. My first go 'round with this didn't go very well. Lost a caliper backing out of the driveway. Didn't have any brakes at the end of the block (glad the e-brake worked). Don't cut corners on this stuff as it could be your *** or someone else's......
4. I replaced the rubber lines with stainless steel, as they do not expand like the rubber ones do....
5. when bleeding the brakes, start with the brake furthest from the master cylinder and work forward (r-r, l-r, r-f, l-f, then clutch system).
6. this is also a good time to replace/service the clutch hydraulics as well, if you have a clutch. If you car has the original clutch hydraulics still in it.....you're risking a problem with the braking system should you have clutch hydraulic failure (broken line or blown cylinder seal....you get the idea). I recommend a total replacement here as well, because if one part fails, the others are not far behind.
7. I did not use any brake noise discs, or noise lube, and have no noise issues with mine.
8. no clearance issues with mine either, as I had already installed a set of 19 inch wheels/tires.
9. painting the "blacks" is no big deal either. just use a good grade of paint stripper (I used aircraft grade), remove the old paint, let dry for a day or so, paint with high temp (engine paint) paint and the mask off the "Porsche" lettering with duct tape. use an orbital sander to remove the paint on the letters, and re-install lines-calipers-pads-etc.....on the car.
It's an easy process to so this, and you can get it done in a weekend.
The results are fantastic.
--------Russ
However, I purchased an entire front suspension system from an S4, so I would not have to worry with aluminum ball joints and such.
Some issues I found (not in any particular order):
1. when separating the ball joints and tie rods ends, you can use a pickle fork (as I did), but you will more than likely tear the dust covers---didn't matter to me 'cause I figured them to be pretty cheap if I found a buyer for the removed parts.
2. on the rear brakes, you do not need any fancy adapters, just a steel washer for proper spacing of the caliper (thanks to Jim Bailey--928 Int'L for this tip).
3. when reinstalling the calipers, the FWM's call for torquing the attaching bolts to 62-65 lbs. Trust me, hand tightening--no matter how big your arms are--won't do it. Use a torque wrench, and re-torque them a few weeks later just to make sure. I also used Locktite on the bolts, although the FWM's do not call for it. My first go 'round with this didn't go very well. Lost a caliper backing out of the driveway. Didn't have any brakes at the end of the block (glad the e-brake worked). Don't cut corners on this stuff as it could be your *** or someone else's......
4. I replaced the rubber lines with stainless steel, as they do not expand like the rubber ones do....
5. when bleeding the brakes, start with the brake furthest from the master cylinder and work forward (r-r, l-r, r-f, l-f, then clutch system).
6. this is also a good time to replace/service the clutch hydraulics as well, if you have a clutch. If you car has the original clutch hydraulics still in it.....you're risking a problem with the braking system should you have clutch hydraulic failure (broken line or blown cylinder seal....you get the idea). I recommend a total replacement here as well, because if one part fails, the others are not far behind.
7. I did not use any brake noise discs, or noise lube, and have no noise issues with mine.
8. no clearance issues with mine either, as I had already installed a set of 19 inch wheels/tires.
9. painting the "blacks" is no big deal either. just use a good grade of paint stripper (I used aircraft grade), remove the old paint, let dry for a day or so, paint with high temp (engine paint) paint and the mask off the "Porsche" lettering with duct tape. use an orbital sander to remove the paint on the letters, and re-install lines-calipers-pads-etc.....on the car.
It's an easy process to so this, and you can get it done in a weekend.
The results are fantastic.
--------Russ
11-08-2007, 07:36 PM
#5
11-09-2007, 10:03 PM
#6
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I just purchased a 928S 1980 Euro. After reading thru this forum I have found that the lower ball jts and eccentrics are still aluminum and have never been replaced. Does anyone know if Porsche had a recall on these parts? Toof
11-09-2007, 10:04 PM
#7
Nordschleife Master
do NOT drive the car untill the balljoints are replaced with steel units!!!!!!!
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11-09-2007, 10:27 PM
#8
Craic Head
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11-10-2007, 12:12 PM
#9
Chronic Tool Dropper
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I don't think there was a "recall" (where Porsche would pick up the tab for the changeover) but there was a Tech Service Bulletin IIRC that tell owners/dealers that it needs to be done. Good news is that the joints fail on tension, like when you turn into a driveway at a slow speed and one front wheel is unloaded. Just never slow down, never turn, and the old ones might be okay... Okay, I have to go along with the recommendation to change them right away.
01-24-2008, 04:36 PM
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Hey all, Well I took your advice and replaced the aluminum lower ball jts on my 80 S Euro. Decided the replace upper ball jts and tie rod ends as well. Upper ball jt job is very easy, however, I`m not at all happy with the boots that came with the kit. After reinstall onto spindle the boot pushed up and over the unmachined portion of A-Arm. It looked so nice before install, I`m not sure what I should do about it, I tried to push the top of the boot back down to machined surface where orginal boot and retaining spring were but it just keeps rolling back or inside-out. Other than this problems with the boots the rest of the kit is great. Anyone else fighting with the boots of the rebuilt kit from 928 Motorsports?? Toof
07-27-2013, 02:47 PM
#12
I know this is a really old thread, and (some) people here like to roast on Carl, but I figured it'd be useful. I'm not sure how much, if at all, Carl has changed the upper ball joint kit since this thread was posted.
I had a very similar installation with the kit i got 2 years ago, with the only change being that I like the poly boots, as they are holding up well, and do their job.
I now have (easily) 10k miles on this repair kit since installation, with absolutely zero complaints. I will say that they don't seem to have "broken in" much as much like Howell, it's still very slow-going and difficult to grease via the Zerk fitting.
So there you go, take it as you will.
I had a very similar installation with the kit i got 2 years ago, with the only change being that I like the poly boots, as they are holding up well, and do their job.
I now have (easily) 10k miles on this repair kit since installation, with absolutely zero complaints. I will say that they don't seem to have "broken in" much as much like Howell, it's still very slow-going and difficult to grease via the Zerk fitting.
So there you go, take it as you will.
07-28-2013, 01:59 AM
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Thanks for keeping us updated, it's very valuable to have this feedback. I see those kits in my future, too.
Thanks!
-Don
Thanks!
-Don
I know this is a really old thread, and (some) people here like to roast on Carl, but I figured it'd be useful. I'm not sure how much, if at all, Carl has changed the upper ball joint kit since this thread was posted.
I had a very similar installation with the kit i got 2 years ago, with the only change being that I like the poly boots, as they are holding up well, and do their job.
I now have (easily) 10k miles on this repair kit since installation, with absolutely zero complaints. I will say that they don't seem to have "broken in" much as much like Howell, it's still very slow-going and difficult to grease via the Zerk fitting.
So there you go, take it as you will.
I had a very similar installation with the kit i got 2 years ago, with the only change being that I like the poly boots, as they are holding up well, and do their job.
I now have (easily) 10k miles on this repair kit since installation, with absolutely zero complaints. I will say that they don't seem to have "broken in" much as much like Howell, it's still very slow-going and difficult to grease via the Zerk fitting.
So there you go, take it as you will.