Another starter problem:-(
10-26-2007, 08:36 AM
#16
Electron Wrangler
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Nick - not sure if thats a recommendation or a curse...
The problem is narrowed down to the relay, the ignition switch or the wiring between these.
Seems like you swapped the relay already... you may want to try a fresh new one too.
The wiring is usually pretty robust unless messed with... the relay socket is probably the most suspect of any connections. The ignition switches do wear out - so it could well be this....
A test for wire & switch is to use the jumper you just made and a DMM to test the coil connection.
Look in the starter relay socket - can you see the metal terminal for the 86 pin - you are looking just to see its not been pushed out the back of the socket...?
Next -
Plug one end of the jumper in the 86 teminal on the starter relay socket. Test the voltage on the other end w.r.t. ground does it go high (~12v) with the ignition switch in the starter position?
Alan
The problem is narrowed down to the relay, the ignition switch or the wiring between these.
Seems like you swapped the relay already... you may want to try a fresh new one too.
The wiring is usually pretty robust unless messed with... the relay socket is probably the most suspect of any connections. The ignition switches do wear out - so it could well be this....
A test for wire & switch is to use the jumper you just made and a DMM to test the coil connection.
Look in the starter relay socket - can you see the metal terminal for the 86 pin - you are looking just to see its not been pushed out the back of the socket...?
Next -
Plug one end of the jumper in the 86 teminal on the starter relay socket. Test the voltage on the other end w.r.t. ground does it go high (~12v) with the ignition switch in the starter position?
Alan
10-26-2007, 12:34 PM
#17
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Don't ignore the neutral safety switch on the side of the gearbox. A failing switch there will cause the same symptoms. Try the gear lever in neutral as well as park position, see if that makes a difference. These switchescan wear, but since they are hanging out exposed under the car, there's always the possibility that it has been damaged by water/dirt intrusion.
Since you have the starter relay out, troubleshooting should start there, looking for voltage on the 87 terminal when the key is turned to the start position. With a high-impedance meter you may see voltage there, indicating that a switch is worn/weak/high resistance if there's still no relay function. Fun stuff!
Since you have the starter relay out, troubleshooting should start there, looking for voltage on the 87 terminal when the key is turned to the start position. With a high-impedance meter you may see voltage there, indicating that a switch is worn/weak/high resistance if there's still no relay function. Fun stuff!
10-26-2007, 04:23 PM
#18
Race Car
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: No where Oklahoma AKA "The Dust Bowl" In The Arm pit Of Hell
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok working on both these now. Called both auto parts stores in town no starter or horn relay. One of the joys of living in a small town in the middle of nowhere. Jason
10-26-2007, 04:56 PM
#20
Race Car
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: No where Oklahoma AKA "The Dust Bowl" In The Arm pit Of Hell
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nick - not sure if thats a recommendation or a curse...
The problem is narrowed down to the relay, the ignition switch or the wiring between these.
Seems like you swapped the relay already... you may want to try a fresh new one too.
The wiring is usually pretty robust unless messed with... the relay socket is probably the most suspect of any connections. The ignition switches do wear out - so it could well be this....
A test for wire & switch is to use the jumper you just made and a DMM to test the coil connection.
Look in the starter relay socket - can you see the metal terminal for the 86 pin - you are looking just to see its not been pushed out the back of the socket...?
Next -
Plug one end of the jumper in the 86 teminal on the starter relay socket. Test the voltage on the other end w.r.t. ground does it go high (~12v) with the ignition switch in the starter position?
Alan
The problem is narrowed down to the relay, the ignition switch or the wiring between these.
Seems like you swapped the relay already... you may want to try a fresh new one too.
The wiring is usually pretty robust unless messed with... the relay socket is probably the most suspect of any connections. The ignition switches do wear out - so it could well be this....
A test for wire & switch is to use the jumper you just made and a DMM to test the coil connection.
Look in the starter relay socket - can you see the metal terminal for the 86 pin - you are looking just to see its not been pushed out the back of the socket...?
Next -
Plug one end of the jumper in the 86 teminal on the starter relay socket. Test the voltage on the other end w.r.t. ground does it go high (~12v) with the ignition switch in the starter position?
Alan
Jason
10-26-2007, 04:58 PM
#21
Race Car
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: No where Oklahoma AKA "The Dust Bowl" In The Arm pit Of Hell
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
10-26-2007, 04:59 PM
#22
Race Car
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: No where Oklahoma AKA "The Dust Bowl" In The Arm pit Of Hell
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't ignore the neutral safety switch on the side of the gearbox. A failing switch there will cause the same symptoms. Try the gear lever in neutral as well as park position, see if that makes a difference. These switchescan wear, but since they are hanging out exposed under the car, there's always the possibility that it has been damaged by water/dirt intrusion.
Since you have the starter relay out, troubleshooting should start there, looking for voltage on the 87 terminal when the key is turned to the start position. With a high-impedance meter you may see voltage there, indicating that a switch is worn/weak/high resistance if there's still no relay function. Fun stuff!
Since you have the starter relay out, troubleshooting should start there, looking for voltage on the 87 terminal when the key is turned to the start position. With a high-impedance meter you may see voltage there, indicating that a switch is worn/weak/high resistance if there's still no relay function. Fun stuff!
Jason
Last edited by 6mil928; 10-26-2007 at 05:36 PM.
10-27-2007, 08:29 PM
#23
Race Car
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: No where Oklahoma AKA "The Dust Bowl" In The Arm pit Of Hell
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok here's another part to the story. While I was looking at the wiring diagram I noticed that the starter relay is labled "Starter Block". Thinking this related to the neutral safety switch I decided to verify it's function. With the relay socket jumpered the car starts excellent in every gear. So this appears to be the relay that gets activated by the neutral safety switch. Anyone think I'm right on this? Jason
10-28-2007, 12:38 AM
#25
Electron Wrangler
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Well not sure what Dr Bob was thinking here... but with the relay out you will get no voltage on the 87 terminal. The relays switch terminals are between 30 & 87 (30 is power).
86 is connected to the ignition switch via the neutral safety switch.
Since you said you have good voltage on 86 - and it starts with a jumper between 30 & 87 it suggest your starter relay is kaput.
Alan
86 is connected to the ignition switch via the neutral safety switch.
Since you said you have good voltage on 86 - and it starts with a jumper between 30 & 87 it suggest your starter relay is kaput.
Alan
10-28-2007, 12:43 AM
#26
Race Car
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: No where Oklahoma AKA "The Dust Bowl" In The Arm pit Of Hell
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well not sure what Dr Bob was thinking here... but with the relay out you will get no voltage on the 87 terminal. The relays switch terminals are between 30 & 87 (30 is power).
86 is connected to the ignition switch via the neutral safety switch.
Since you said you have good voltage on 86 - and it starts with a jumper between 30 & 87 it suggest your starter relay is kaput.
Alan
86 is connected to the ignition switch via the neutral safety switch.
Since you said you have good voltage on 86 - and it starts with a jumper between 30 & 87 it suggest your starter relay is kaput.
Alan
10-28-2007, 01:22 AM
#27
Race Car
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: No where Oklahoma AKA "The Dust Bowl" In The Arm pit Of Hell
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alan went out and retested it to make sure I wasn't lying about power on 86 and I definately have power on 86. I read the relay and if I read it correctly I should have ground at 85 which I do not have. Is it possible that the neutral safety switch on the transmission supplies ground on 85? I'm going to go back through the wiring diagram to see if I'm correct. I get all the correct powers on everything except 85 I get nothing no ground or power. I think I might be on to something here. Thoughts anyone???? Jason
10-28-2007, 01:31 AM
#28
Rennlist Member
I had this EXACT same thing in a 79. I tracked it down to the ign switch, BUT to my surprise the new switch did the same thing. The problem was my key, it was so worn that it would not turn the lock all the way, the key had too much slop in the key hole. new key and never had another problem. Good luck!
10-28-2007, 01:38 AM
#29
Race Car
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: No where Oklahoma AKA "The Dust Bowl" In The Arm pit Of Hell
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had this EXACT same thing in a 79. I tracked it down to the ign switch, BUT to my surprise the new switch did the same thing. The problem was my key, it was so worn that it would not turn the lock all the way, the key had too much slop in the key hole. new key and never had another problem. Good luck!
Did you have the no ground problem on pin 85? Jason
10-28-2007, 03:14 AM
#30
Race Car
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: No where Oklahoma AKA "The Dust Bowl" In The Arm pit Of Hell
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another part to add to this story. After talking about worn ignition locks I decided to try my long key and it too did nothing. Jason