Hello all, newbie on the 928 board, and I know very little about them.

I am interested in participating in a race series here that only allows non modified "coupe" therefore including all 911s, or modified "saloons".

My 993 TT is heaviliy modifed so I cannot compete in it, and OTOH I do not see myself participating in non-modified class in any 911s, whatever car it is.

The 928 seems to be the perfect candidate since they consider it "saloon", and therefore can compete in modified form.

Any input and opinions as to how fast can a 928 be made for the track, and remain reliable for one season. Other main competitors are 996GT2 stock, 997TT and 997 GT3RS..all good drivers.

Any indicative lap times would be great!

I would be interested in purchasing a competitive 928 track car if there are any available at decent prices.

Appreciate your input guys.

 

You were looking for lap times for Dubai?

.

 

Welcome to the 928 board, Jean!

We have a core crew of dedicated track 928s and quite a few dual-purpose street/track 928s too.

Mark Kibort owns and races (SCCA) the 1987 928 S4 that Al Holbert set a land speed record with in 1986.

Mark Anderson (owner and operator of 928 International) runs a wicked full-race 928 that makes 911s look like moving chicanes.

Carl Fausett (owner and operator of 928 Motorsports) took his supercharged full-race 928 to a podium rookie finish at the Pikes Peak International Hill Climb this year.

Too many Rennlisters to list run their street-driven 928s at track days and DE events.


~~~~~~~~~~~

The 928 track car pros and cons, IMO:
+ low purchase price
+ reliable mechanicals
+ powerful and torquey V8
+ excellent chassis balance
+ advanced Weissach suspension (which is enshrined in Automotive Engineering college textbooks, BTW)
+ stiff and safe unibody
+ tons of upgrades available (do a search for the Sharktuner!)

- weight
- 5-spds rarer than automatics
- IMO overcomplicated timing belt tensioner
- 2/6 bearing failures due to oil-control problems in hard-driven track 928s
- age-related electrical issues

 

whats the difference between a coupe and a saloon? 911s and 928s have the same amounts of seats and doors.

 

It depends on how they write the rules. Early 928s are a great fit for 944Supercup. Later 928s are a decent fit for ITE. They are both lightly modified from stock classes. There is no spec class in the US for 928s, and they don't seem to do well in their respective stock PCA classes.

Mark Anderson, Joe Fan, and John Veninger have stroker-engined monsters that are or will be very successful. It sounds like that is well beyond the modifications you are looking at for your series.

 

OK, I re-read your post and thought some more about the competition.

To clarify, this racing series allows the 996GT2 stock, 997TT and 997 GT3RS (probably in stock form also?) into the Saloon category

And you're not interested in running a non-modifed 911 of any type, which I understand - as an air-conditioned, leather-swathed, stereo-equiped street car is great for the ocasional trackday, DE, fun run etc - but for wheel-to-wheel racing for championship points in a series you need the right tool - a dedicated racecar.

The 997 GT3RS is closer to a racecar than most.

What modifications would a 928 be allowed? Because any 928, even a GTS, is going to need some big ones to hang with those 3 uber-911s you listed.

 

Hi Jean,

If I were in your shoes I would either buy a 997GT3RS, or if cost is an issue, a C6 Z06 Corvette which will give those three a run for their money (no pun intended) at a much lower cost. Probably less than the amount it would take to modify a 928 to run against those three Porsches.

The 928 would also have to be modified by those that have done so in the past with substantiated results. At this time I can really only think of two people with that kind of pedigree.

Good luck,
Constantine

 

Jean,

You have to dump a lot of weight to get the car running with those cars. I don't know what the
rules allow, but I don't think they'll allow enough to get the 928 in the same ball park as those cars
with a "stock" motor.

 

Thank you guys!

Steve G., no, any track lap times in the US, I have seen a few sites with lap times but I have no idea how modified are those 928s to compare vs. the 911 series.

JEC-31, thanks! Lot of good info. Yes to clarify, you can either run the coupe series, which would include all the STOCK 911s in all their forms (GT2, GT3 RS etc..), or.. the Saloon series, of which the 928 forms part, in completely track car form, no limitations.

Art-Z, the difference is that they consider saloon a car that can fit 2 adults in the back seats. They did not accept the 911s.

Flying Dog, thanks. No limitations on modifications. Just need to have a full roll cage and fire supression system etc.. You can even change engines and put a Corvette in there

Constantine, the GT3 RS is too expensive to run in this series. I was hoping a well modified 928 track car would keep up with it. Weight to the bare minimum. I put 3-4 seconds per lap on the 997 GT3 RS driven by a professional with my 993TT street/track car.This track is fast and you can use torque to your advantage. I thought a well modded 928 should be competitive.

jorj 7, I agree, need to shed a lot of weight from them. No limitations there either

Any examples of succesful 928s on the track with other competition?

Please keep it coming Thanks.

 

Well, Mark Anderson does a pretty good job of kicking most of the Cup Cars' butts at most events he goes to. Guess we need Mark to give you some details. Right now, he's kind of busy getting ready for Sharktoberfest. Maybe he will get involved in this, next week.

 

Hi Jean,

You will need to do a lot more than just lighten the 928 for it to be competitive agaisnt the three Porsches you mentioned. A stroked engine with modifications done to increase it's life, an engine management system, suspension mods and other tweaks are in store for the 928. Getting weight down to 2700 lbs. will take effort and after that, a lot of effort. Not too many 928 body panel pieces exist that can be used to lighten up the 928. To build a reliable and competitive 928 for this race series will probably cost upwards of $50K U.S. and that's if some of the work is done by you and everything works the first time around.

All that being said, I'm sure many of us will be very happy for you to take on this project and go kick some booty in our favorite Porsche. Greg Brown who posted above about Mark Anderson was one of the two people I alluded in my previuos post. He has built the motors of many stroked 928 motors, with the most famous one being for Mark Anderson which lasted for an incredible 4 (or 5?) race seasons without a major rebuild in between.

Mark Anderson was the other person I alluded to...No offense to the other 928 racers meant!

Cheers,
Constantine

 

What do you consider a decent price?

 

Constantine, great info, thanks!

Since I am at the exploration stage, I don't want to contact any engine builders yet, just doing some research and hearing from people who have BTDT to get a feel. I am however in a hurry and must make up my mind. This is a low budget series (if there is such thing) and not worth investing too much in a car..As long as I can be competitive with a 100% stock 996GT2, I will be very happy.

That is quite fast. He must have many serious mods done to the engine and chassis. A Cup car has about 6.3 lbs/HP, for a 928 to get close to it, it should go to 4.5 lbs/HP or so..to compensate for the much stiffer 911 Cup chassis and better geometry and braking.

I don't know how much weight can be shaved, but having just looked at an S4 a couple of hours ago, I can see a lot of luxuries in there with heavy seats, dashboard and interior..Probably 500lbs should not be "very " difficult. That would put it at 3000 lbs DIN...maybe not enough for 320+ HP

John,

I just looked at a nice 928 S4 that the owner wants to sell for $7K but in automatic ...Amazing that the prices of such nice cars are so low.. Overall very good shape. I figured that with a set of wide BBS Magnesium (I have one at home, might have to look at the offsets), a set of KW, good sway bars, Lexan rear and side windows, stripping it out, adding a roll cage and fire suppression system, and having a go at refreshing the engine , (plugs, wires, filters, oil, etc.) + finding a 5 speed gearbox and a set of pads (calipers and rotors are ok), I should be close to $22K. Labor here is very inexpensive.

I would prefer to buy a complete track car for sure instead of having to go through this...maybe for less than $20k depending on what it has. Is that unreasonable?

I might be looking as well at an M3 and an M5, older models, they seem to be able to be very competitive with the 928, and upgrading them with some very decent power is inexpensive, but I have the brand loyalty issue that I need to overcome first...

 

You should also email Paul Anderson at www.928spares.co.uk who runs a 928 in the UK with some very competitive results.

 

I am surprized Mark Kibort has not chimed in here. His car is a mostly stock 928 with only a set of headers and bigger wheel/tires. Oh, it is also stripped down to 2700lbs and has a bigger front splitter and rear wing.

I'll see what kind of track times I can find, as he seems to run pretty competative. I'm not sure if it would keep up with a stock 996 GT2 but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.