Horrible Tragedy 2/1/03 AM
02-02-2003, 01:21 AM
#16
Nordschleife Master
Well, I guess it realy takes something big to wake us up.
<img border="0" alt="[soapbox]" title="" src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" />
You know, it always amazes me, a reletivly small number of people die, in a very public way, and it's a tragity. A very large number of people die in a less public way, and it's nothing.
It doesn't change the fact that they're dead, or the hurting the people that knew them go though. As far as I'm consirned, it's always a tragity.
One more sad day, in a string of sad days.
That bring up a question. How much is a human life worth? In the 1900s New York construction industry, one human life was worth one floor. In building the Trans-Siberian railway, 10 humans = a bridge over a river. On a rig I worked on, 2 men payed for the work with their life.** What a sad thought. To do anything worthwile, it seems like part of the ticket has to be payed in blood. I guess space exploration is worth 7+8*+3 lives.
*If this the number of people on the Challanger. I don't know how many people died in the Russian program. It's more though.
**Forchantly, I wasn't there when it happened.
<img border="0" alt="[soapbox]" title="" src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" />
You know, it always amazes me, a reletivly small number of people die, in a very public way, and it's a tragity. A very large number of people die in a less public way, and it's nothing.
It doesn't change the fact that they're dead, or the hurting the people that knew them go though. As far as I'm consirned, it's always a tragity.
One more sad day, in a string of sad days.
That bring up a question. How much is a human life worth? In the 1900s New York construction industry, one human life was worth one floor. In building the Trans-Siberian railway, 10 humans = a bridge over a river. On a rig I worked on, 2 men payed for the work with their life.** What a sad thought. To do anything worthwile, it seems like part of the ticket has to be payed in blood. I guess space exploration is worth 7+8*+3 lives.
*If this the number of people on the Challanger. I don't know how many people died in the Russian program. It's more though.
**Forchantly, I wasn't there when it happened.
02-02-2003, 04:45 AM
#19
Track Day
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear All,
...Opened the TV to show my nephew some kiddie channel yesterday afternoon (Tel-Aviv=GMT 2)...TV turned on CNN. it is still on.
Our hearts are with the families of the seven brave men and women, the American nation and Israeli community. I know their journey and venture started with flight STS107 shall be remembered forever.
From all of us
Eran Sharon
Tel-Aviv, Israel
...Opened the TV to show my nephew some kiddie channel yesterday afternoon (Tel-Aviv=GMT 2)...TV turned on CNN. it is still on.
Our hearts are with the families of the seven brave men and women, the American nation and Israeli community. I know their journey and venture started with flight STS107 shall be remembered forever.
From all of us
Eran Sharon
Tel-Aviv, Israel
02-02-2003, 09:39 AM
#20
Risk management folks at NASA said it was good to go after the wing strike on take-off.
Norm and others know enough about bird strike, drag damage or a hung wheel and the effects it can have on a 'relatively' slow aircraft.
Those people at NASA should have been concerned enough to schedule a EVA for inspection.
The tiles are a mother to fit -different shapes, thicknesses, varying composition-. The mastics are a curious blend with cure times that don't lend themselves to hyper-accurate full cure times. Batch runs might get close to perfection, but humans mix the final product. Between that and an errant air pocket or bubble, the inability of the tiles or the mastic to take any kind of shear loads and horrific body rumble/vibration on take off...
The sensors in the 'hit' wing going off line after tire press/hydraulic pressure readings started pegging was the prime indicator that there was a sustained heat spike. Structure integrity was violated. Heat... Tires blowing first, then hydraulic accumulators. Either of which would breach the wing structure - quick jerk- inducing roll, probably slow at first with an accompanied pitch/yaw problem even at speed under Mach 1 this would have been catastrophic.
Between the heat generated at 12,000mph +, the inertia of the shuttle, and the crabbing caused by structure damage. They were traveling at roughly 3.5 miles a second when it started break up. The atmosphere is concrete at those speeds if your aircraft is no longer an aerodynamic airfoil.
Side loading on spinning helicopter - in other than straight on run crashes - at speeds of less than 100mph will break the necks of most heatlthy in shape crew members without helmet/head restraining straps and or neck bracing. We lose a bunch of people every year.
Even with nested head restraints and body molded seats I don't think they had time to even think about being afraid.
I feel, extremely, bad for the families and loved ones of those who lost their lives in this tragedy.
But, on the up side, they will be remembered in history books as volunteers and explorers who willingly gave their lives to extend the boundries of the human race.
Cold as this might sound one of the original Mercury 7 (Grissom?) stated it simply: something about not needing a cream of the crop fighter/ test pilot if you are just going to strap a big volitale rocket to your ***.
This has been and will remain a dangerous, high risk, life threatening form of transportation. As long as our intrepid space travlers are aware of the dangers, NASA promotes and developes safer forms of transport I can live with past, present and future tragedy's.
What I won't gag down is some bureacracy telling me that damage to a skin, structure let alone a wing airfoil surface is no biggie, not do an EVA inspection, then run us thru costly, unneeded, investigations, and hearings to find out what happened. What the hell fell off and hit the wing in the first place, who installed it, how did they install it, who signed off on the inspection, and how did they perform that inspection?
The Aircraft industry, let alone the Space Industry, and NASA maintains a good safety record by adhereing to RIGID Production, Maintenance schedules, Inspection and Quality Control protocols. If there is a shortcut or abbrogation of these schedules and protocols it is an invitation to disaster. We just watched a life snuffing event yesterday that actually started at launch , about 12 days ago. They might not have been able to repair any evident damage in orbit but they could have stayed docked until next shuttle launch and returned in a safer craft. The station is provisioned for months, and a damaged shuttle could have become our first space taxi.
This did not need to end this way.
Norm and others know enough about bird strike, drag damage or a hung wheel and the effects it can have on a 'relatively' slow aircraft.
Those people at NASA should have been concerned enough to schedule a EVA for inspection.
The tiles are a mother to fit -different shapes, thicknesses, varying composition-. The mastics are a curious blend with cure times that don't lend themselves to hyper-accurate full cure times. Batch runs might get close to perfection, but humans mix the final product. Between that and an errant air pocket or bubble, the inability of the tiles or the mastic to take any kind of shear loads and horrific body rumble/vibration on take off...
The sensors in the 'hit' wing going off line after tire press/hydraulic pressure readings started pegging was the prime indicator that there was a sustained heat spike. Structure integrity was violated. Heat... Tires blowing first, then hydraulic accumulators. Either of which would breach the wing structure - quick jerk- inducing roll, probably slow at first with an accompanied pitch/yaw problem even at speed under Mach 1 this would have been catastrophic.
Between the heat generated at 12,000mph +, the inertia of the shuttle, and the crabbing caused by structure damage. They were traveling at roughly 3.5 miles a second when it started break up. The atmosphere is concrete at those speeds if your aircraft is no longer an aerodynamic airfoil.
Side loading on spinning helicopter - in other than straight on run crashes - at speeds of less than 100mph will break the necks of most heatlthy in shape crew members without helmet/head restraining straps and or neck bracing. We lose a bunch of people every year.
Even with nested head restraints and body molded seats I don't think they had time to even think about being afraid.
I feel, extremely, bad for the families and loved ones of those who lost their lives in this tragedy.
But, on the up side, they will be remembered in history books as volunteers and explorers who willingly gave their lives to extend the boundries of the human race.
Cold as this might sound one of the original Mercury 7 (Grissom?) stated it simply: something about not needing a cream of the crop fighter/ test pilot if you are just going to strap a big volitale rocket to your ***.
This has been and will remain a dangerous, high risk, life threatening form of transportation. As long as our intrepid space travlers are aware of the dangers, NASA promotes and developes safer forms of transport I can live with past, present and future tragedy's.
What I won't gag down is some bureacracy telling me that damage to a skin, structure let alone a wing airfoil surface is no biggie, not do an EVA inspection, then run us thru costly, unneeded, investigations, and hearings to find out what happened. What the hell fell off and hit the wing in the first place, who installed it, how did they install it, who signed off on the inspection, and how did they perform that inspection?
The Aircraft industry, let alone the Space Industry, and NASA maintains a good safety record by adhereing to RIGID Production, Maintenance schedules, Inspection and Quality Control protocols. If there is a shortcut or abbrogation of these schedules and protocols it is an invitation to disaster. We just watched a life snuffing event yesterday that actually started at launch , about 12 days ago. They might not have been able to repair any evident damage in orbit but they could have stayed docked until next shuttle launch and returned in a safer craft. The station is provisioned for months, and a damaged shuttle could have become our first space taxi.
This did not need to end this way.
02-02-2003, 02:07 PM
#21
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Yeah, im all to familiar with it, had it in the CD player on Friday, just felt like listening to the "Signals" album. Talk about goose bumps! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Witnesses in the RENO area reportedly saw it coming a part there as did a few others even farther West.
All speculation to this point but it seems to me the damage to the left wing on launch will be a contributing factor.
Now, all this doesnt add up to me. During one of the many interviews I watched, a NASA official stated they didnt have the capability to performa a space walk or even repair a damage tile, even if there were any.
I have to ask...
Why, on a such a highly engineered but extremely fragile and CRITICAL tile system NASA didnt appear to take the damage more seriously or have atleast a contingency plan ready incase the shuttle indeed couldnt return to earth safely after some sort of inspection.
I remember on the early missions how they would get the robotic arm to peer over the sides and take a look at the fuselage..engine pods..etc to check tile condition when they had to. Im aware the Shuttle didnt have the arm on this mission, so MORE the case they should of had the capability to perform some sort of inspection.
So, via an inspection, they conclude the shuttle cant return saflety, NO BIG DEAL (to us at least) the crew stays in orbit as long as they can, transfers to the space station and then another shuttle is sent up (20th feb was the next launch i think) Now we have 7 lives saved...a bit of NASA and national pride lost.
This however is a BIG DEAL to the folks at NASA and who ever else has there hands in the polictcal, contractor..insurance cookie jar.,
I hate to think that there were a few engineers, or folks in the control center just as in the Challenger explosion, had an horrible gut feeling something was going to happen and were speaking upon deaf ears. It happended before!
Its all arm chair QB'ing I know and IMHO.
Just adding to the topic.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Witnesses in the RENO area reportedly saw it coming a part there as did a few others even farther West.
All speculation to this point but it seems to me the damage to the left wing on launch will be a contributing factor.
Now, all this doesnt add up to me. During one of the many interviews I watched, a NASA official stated they didnt have the capability to performa a space walk or even repair a damage tile, even if there were any.
I have to ask...
Why, on a such a highly engineered but extremely fragile and CRITICAL tile system NASA didnt appear to take the damage more seriously or have atleast a contingency plan ready incase the shuttle indeed couldnt return to earth safely after some sort of inspection.
I remember on the early missions how they would get the robotic arm to peer over the sides and take a look at the fuselage..engine pods..etc to check tile condition when they had to. Im aware the Shuttle didnt have the arm on this mission, so MORE the case they should of had the capability to perform some sort of inspection.
So, via an inspection, they conclude the shuttle cant return saflety, NO BIG DEAL (to us at least) the crew stays in orbit as long as they can, transfers to the space station and then another shuttle is sent up (20th feb was the next launch i think) Now we have 7 lives saved...a bit of NASA and national pride lost.
This however is a BIG DEAL to the folks at NASA and who ever else has there hands in the polictcal, contractor..insurance cookie jar.,
I hate to think that there were a few engineers, or folks in the control center just as in the Challenger explosion, had an horrible gut feeling something was going to happen and were speaking upon deaf ears. It happended before!
Its all arm chair QB'ing I know and IMHO.
Just adding to the topic.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
02-02-2003, 02:24 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
From an interview with someone on the news yesterday, I gathered that even if the ship was damaged on takeoff, there was no way to repair the damage. He also stated that the shuttle would not have been able to make it to the space station either.
I am no NASA engineer but this seems crazy??
I guess it will take some time to sort all of this out but how could this be? We have the capability to put men on the moon but can't manage to get outside to, at least, inspect some damage.
Basically the person stated that if the shuttle was damaged upon liftoff, the shuttle and the crew would have been doomed?????
Wow.......
This raises the thought of "what if they knew from the beginning that the shuttle was damaged and couldn't be fixed. What if they also knew that the re-entry was going to be a crap-shoot at best".
Sends shivers up the back of my neck......
I am no NASA engineer but this seems crazy??
I guess it will take some time to sort all of this out but how could this be? We have the capability to put men on the moon but can't manage to get outside to, at least, inspect some damage.
Basically the person stated that if the shuttle was damaged upon liftoff, the shuttle and the crew would have been doomed?????
Wow.......
This raises the thought of "what if they knew from the beginning that the shuttle was damaged and couldn't be fixed. What if they also knew that the re-entry was going to be a crap-shoot at best".
Sends shivers up the back of my neck......
02-02-2003, 03:29 PM
#23
Banned
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If they could not repair the tile damage or reach the space station, I suppose the only other option would have been to orbit the earth as long as possible, and wait for a rescue flight from another shuttle/soyuz?
02-02-2003, 06:45 PM
#24
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Seattle - it's not Hell, but you can see it from here!
Posts: 3,679
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John Struthers:
<strong>They might not have been able to repair any evident damage in orbit but they could have stayed docked until next shuttle launch and returned in a safer craft. The station is provisioned for months, and a damaged shuttle could have become our first space taxi.
This did not need to end this way.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">John,
Columbia didn't go to the station, it never has. it's too heavy to reach the station's orbital path. plus, they had the SpaceLab in the bay, not a station docking ring. also, no fuel to get there...
<strong>They might not have been able to repair any evident damage in orbit but they could have stayed docked until next shuttle launch and returned in a safer craft. The station is provisioned for months, and a damaged shuttle could have become our first space taxi.
This did not need to end this way.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">John,
Columbia didn't go to the station, it never has. it's too heavy to reach the station's orbital path. plus, they had the SpaceLab in the bay, not a station docking ring. also, no fuel to get there...
02-02-2003, 07:31 PM
#25
Banned
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So then the only option would have been to wait for another shuttle to rescue them, if they had noticed the "possible" tile damage. If they had no docking ring to connect to the station, could thay have gotten to it via EVA? Although if they couldn't reach the stations orbital path, I guess it doesnt't matter, they were doomed regardless.
02-02-2003, 07:32 PM
#26
Banned
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So then the only option would have been to wait for another shuttle to rescue them, if they had noticed the "possible" tile damage. If they had no docking ring to connect to the station, could thay have gotten to it via EVA? Although if they couldn't reach the stations orbital path, I guess it doesnt't matter, they were doomed regardless.
02-02-2003, 07:47 PM
#27
Three Wheelin'
I wonder if NASA's frame of mind after lift-off was that there was nothing they could do about potential damage, no way to clearly verify it, so it's business as usaual and hope for the best.
In this case, things didn't work out. I just don't think that they had many options.
Greg
In this case, things didn't work out. I just don't think that they had many options.
Greg
