Air Pump ( Smog) Question
01-30-2003, 07:41 PM
#16
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bcdavis:
I have a plan..... a Vortex SuperCharger with a FAST kit but a delta-P bracket, installed by Eric Munch to feed your CATs. <img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" />
No controversy oughta come from THIS post!! <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
I have a plan..... a Vortex SuperCharger with a FAST kit but a delta-P bracket, installed by Eric Munch to feed your CATs. <img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" />
No controversy oughta come from THIS post!! <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
01-30-2003, 09:55 PM
#17
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Pump isn't always better for the environment - my 86.5 fails emissions with the pump line connected, passes with flying colors with it disconnected. Go figure.
01-30-2003, 11:50 PM
#18
Nordschleife Master
My comment as to the DOT wanting them there is aimed for the early model cars. They weren't included on the European cars until the various European laws required them. It wasn't possible to put a O2 sencor on a Euro car, untill 84, with the S2 type. Before the LH-jetronic system, the K-jetronic didn't have a methoid of dealing with the O2 sencor. This I belive, is why 80-84 US cars had the L-jetronic. It could have an O2 sencor.
A perfectly tuned engine should certainly pass the DOT requirements. The problem is that even with our electronic fuel injection engines, they're not perfectly tuned all of the time. At certain rpms and load conditions, the fuel quantity supplied, and the ignition timing are not perfect. This is because the older ignition systems aren’t all that adjustable, and under rapid acceleration, the O2 sensor doesn't react fast enough. Result, the engine uses the same, safe maps as the none O2 sensor cars and makes pollutants, possibly far in excess of the DOT requirements. Add to this the fact that Porsche's designers had to deal with the US's lower octane, unleaded fuel. As a result, they had to use a lower compression engine. Lower compression means less complete fuel burning, with the attendant hydrocarbon emotions.
Result, the DOT wants cats on our cars. It helps the environment, but...
To oxidize the extra hydrocarbons and CO, all you need is high tempetures, and O2. The exhaust right out of the manifold is plenty hot, and the smog pump is to provide the O2. No cat is needed. In the presence of O2, the CO and hydrocarbons basically just burn up. If you waited till the exhaust was outside the tailpipe, the temps wouldn't be high enough. Result, hydrocarbons, and CO are emitted into the atmosphere. Many of the hydrocarbons fall under the total of "Volatile organics” Volatile organics have been shown to increase O3, or ozone. Ozone is highly reactive, and tends to cause lung problems in humans, and create free radicals. Free radicals are really bad.
As far as I know, cats are there solely to rid us of NO and NO2 emissions. Without the heat supplied by the exhaust and the burning hydrocarbons, and CO, the cat could not work. It is this heat that allows the cat to convert the NO and NO2 into N2 and O2. Thus the cat needs the O2. Btw, NO spontaneously reacts with O2 to form NO2. NO2 is a chief component in smog. NO2 reacts with water to form HNO2, or nitric acid, a chief component in acid rain.
Under the system with the cat, all of the cleaning occurs inside the cat. If the O2 was injected too early, it would screw with the O2 sensor. It would also cause the hydrocarbons, and CO to burn before they made it to the cat, allowing there to be a heat lose before the exhaust made it to the cat. Without that heat, the cat would be unable to do its job. Under the system without the cat, the O2 should be injected ASAP. This is to get the exhaust where it's the hottest, and thus the most reactive. Without the cat's elements to create a large, hot, surface area, the exhaust needs to be burnt ASAP.
Some people are worried about N2O. Apparently, the standard cat not only makes N2 and O2, but N2O as well. N20 could possibly be reacted out with a different catalyst. I'm not sure if Detroit is worried about that just yet. I believe your 3 way cat means it deals with 3 pollutants: NO, (and NO2), CO, and hydrocarbons. Porsche said they equipped my car with a 3 way cat, and that’s what they said it cleans up. I imagine a two-way cat would simply deal with CO and hydrocarbons. Sort of a way to have an O2 sensor on a car, and still keep the hydrocarbons and CO down. I don't see how you could burn the hydrocarbon w/o the CO. IIRC, they oxidize at very similar temps.
Btw, Quill, what specific part of the emission’s check does your car fail with the pump? At least on my car, it's not just a simple pump air into the cat. There is a diverter valve, and a set up off of it. I don't honestly understand everything about that part of the system. I really haven't had to deal with it. Could it be your pump is putting air somewhere it shouldn't go?
A perfectly tuned engine should certainly pass the DOT requirements. The problem is that even with our electronic fuel injection engines, they're not perfectly tuned all of the time. At certain rpms and load conditions, the fuel quantity supplied, and the ignition timing are not perfect. This is because the older ignition systems aren’t all that adjustable, and under rapid acceleration, the O2 sensor doesn't react fast enough. Result, the engine uses the same, safe maps as the none O2 sensor cars and makes pollutants, possibly far in excess of the DOT requirements. Add to this the fact that Porsche's designers had to deal with the US's lower octane, unleaded fuel. As a result, they had to use a lower compression engine. Lower compression means less complete fuel burning, with the attendant hydrocarbon emotions.
Result, the DOT wants cats on our cars. It helps the environment, but...
To oxidize the extra hydrocarbons and CO, all you need is high tempetures, and O2. The exhaust right out of the manifold is plenty hot, and the smog pump is to provide the O2. No cat is needed. In the presence of O2, the CO and hydrocarbons basically just burn up. If you waited till the exhaust was outside the tailpipe, the temps wouldn't be high enough. Result, hydrocarbons, and CO are emitted into the atmosphere. Many of the hydrocarbons fall under the total of "Volatile organics” Volatile organics have been shown to increase O3, or ozone. Ozone is highly reactive, and tends to cause lung problems in humans, and create free radicals. Free radicals are really bad.
As far as I know, cats are there solely to rid us of NO and NO2 emissions. Without the heat supplied by the exhaust and the burning hydrocarbons, and CO, the cat could not work. It is this heat that allows the cat to convert the NO and NO2 into N2 and O2. Thus the cat needs the O2. Btw, NO spontaneously reacts with O2 to form NO2. NO2 is a chief component in smog. NO2 reacts with water to form HNO2, or nitric acid, a chief component in acid rain.
Under the system with the cat, all of the cleaning occurs inside the cat. If the O2 was injected too early, it would screw with the O2 sensor. It would also cause the hydrocarbons, and CO to burn before they made it to the cat, allowing there to be a heat lose before the exhaust made it to the cat. Without that heat, the cat would be unable to do its job. Under the system without the cat, the O2 should be injected ASAP. This is to get the exhaust where it's the hottest, and thus the most reactive. Without the cat's elements to create a large, hot, surface area, the exhaust needs to be burnt ASAP.
Some people are worried about N2O. Apparently, the standard cat not only makes N2 and O2, but N2O as well. N20 could possibly be reacted out with a different catalyst. I'm not sure if Detroit is worried about that just yet. I believe your 3 way cat means it deals with 3 pollutants: NO, (and NO2), CO, and hydrocarbons. Porsche said they equipped my car with a 3 way cat, and that’s what they said it cleans up. I imagine a two-way cat would simply deal with CO and hydrocarbons. Sort of a way to have an O2 sensor on a car, and still keep the hydrocarbons and CO down. I don't see how you could burn the hydrocarbon w/o the CO. IIRC, they oxidize at very similar temps.
Btw, Quill, what specific part of the emission’s check does your car fail with the pump? At least on my car, it's not just a simple pump air into the cat. There is a diverter valve, and a set up off of it. I don't honestly understand everything about that part of the system. I really haven't had to deal with it. Could it be your pump is putting air somewhere it shouldn't go?
01-31-2003, 03:23 AM
#19
Nordschleife Master
Unforchantly, I have. My car's not up to spec. I'm working on it, but it's one problem at a time. It's all legal for my area, because it's built in 83. On 84 and newer cars, in my area, everything needs to work. Older than 84, the cat will be inspected if it's there, but it doesn't have to be there. I know, I checked the law before I bought it. One day, when the time comes, I will put a NEW cat on it, but that day isn't here yet. I've got other problems, and the moneys a bit tight.
I sure hope that wasn't a threat to turn me into the police when I've done nothing wrong.
I wish I had my service mannuals. I'd look up your car and make sure. I lost 'em, anc I don't have a clue where abouts they are. Very frustrating, because a 75 dollar calculater, and my retainer are with them. I lost the whole stupid bag!
If your car's sytem is like mine, on my 83, if the air diverter valve doesn't go to the cat, something is WRONG! If the smog pump doesn't feed into the exaust some where, something is wrong! If your in Texas, and the inspector realized what he was looking at, there would be a problem. Forchantly, most of them don't know anyting about a 928, and don't realy care. They're not going to go looking, they get payed by how many they do, so the quicker they can do you, the more money they can make. Not only that, but there's not enough space! If you later get cought with it not right, they can always claim that it was right when they looked at it, and you modifyed it after you got your sticker.
I could be wrong, but I'm almost 100% certain that to do anything good at all, the smog pump has to feed into the exaust. IIRC, it has to be behind the O2 sencor, but I could very easily be wrong on that. I'm not under my car right now, so I can't realy look, and I didn't make a note of it last time I was there. If you can wait till the weekend, I'll take a look at mine, and see if it feeds into the system before or after the O2 sensor. Do rember, the PO modifyed my exaust, so it might not be correct. I'm finding lought of "suprises". (like the jumpered fuel pump relay. Someone was too cheap to buy a relay!)
According to my owner's mannual, on the 83 US 928S, the smog pump is suppost to go though the diverter valve, and feed into the cat, after the O2 sensor.
///Editing/// I notice that Devek sells a cat with out the air injection, but with the Lamda sensor. This leaves me confused. All the vehicals I've delt with had the smog pump, AND the cat. I've delt with a with truck that had a smog pump, and no cat. I've never delt with no pump, but a cat. If 928 intl site is right, all the US cars from 79 on had the air pump.///End editing///
I sure hope that wasn't a threat to turn me into the police when I've done nothing wrong.
I wish I had my service mannuals. I'd look up your car and make sure. I lost 'em, anc I don't have a clue where abouts they are. Very frustrating, because a 75 dollar calculater, and my retainer are with them. I lost the whole stupid bag!
If your car's sytem is like mine, on my 83, if the air diverter valve doesn't go to the cat, something is WRONG! If the smog pump doesn't feed into the exaust some where, something is wrong! If your in Texas, and the inspector realized what he was looking at, there would be a problem. Forchantly, most of them don't know anyting about a 928, and don't realy care. They're not going to go looking, they get payed by how many they do, so the quicker they can do you, the more money they can make. Not only that, but there's not enough space! If you later get cought with it not right, they can always claim that it was right when they looked at it, and you modifyed it after you got your sticker.
I could be wrong, but I'm almost 100% certain that to do anything good at all, the smog pump has to feed into the exaust. IIRC, it has to be behind the O2 sencor, but I could very easily be wrong on that. I'm not under my car right now, so I can't realy look, and I didn't make a note of it last time I was there. If you can wait till the weekend, I'll take a look at mine, and see if it feeds into the system before or after the O2 sensor. Do rember, the PO modifyed my exaust, so it might not be correct. I'm finding lought of "suprises". (like the jumpered fuel pump relay. Someone was too cheap to buy a relay!)
According to my owner's mannual, on the 83 US 928S, the smog pump is suppost to go though the diverter valve, and feed into the cat, after the O2 sensor.
///Editing/// I notice that Devek sells a cat with out the air injection, but with the Lamda sensor. This leaves me confused. All the vehicals I've delt with had the smog pump, AND the cat. I've delt with a with truck that had a smog pump, and no cat. I've never delt with no pump, but a cat. If 928 intl site is right, all the US cars from 79 on had the air pump.///End editing///
01-31-2003, 04:16 AM
#20
Nordschleife Master
Now I've got a question for the board. I started looking around, just to make sure I'm right.
I thought I had a pretty good hanndle on this stuff, but apperently, I'm missing something.
I know how my car's sytem is suppost to work. I'm 99.9999% sure I'm suppost to have a cat, with O2 sensor, and air injection. Cat was removed, I know the O2 sensor is in the replacement pipe, on the frount end.
What's stumping me is that 928 intl sells a belt 80-82 for the air pump and fan. They also sell a smog pump for cars between 80-95. According to devek's web site they doesn't offer a CART cat, with air injection for the 1980 model. Also, 928intl sells the belts and smog pumps for 78 and 79 cars. Devek doesn't offer a cat, with air injection for those cars. They're all suppost to be CART legal too, and I'm fairly sure California wouldn't allow less than OEM equipment on public roads.
For the smog pump to make any sence, it needs to inject air into the exaust system. It would also need to be ahead of the cat, right? Were, if at all, does it do this?
Thanks.
I thought I had a pretty good hanndle on this stuff, but apperently, I'm missing something.
I know how my car's sytem is suppost to work. I'm 99.9999% sure I'm suppost to have a cat, with O2 sensor, and air injection. Cat was removed, I know the O2 sensor is in the replacement pipe, on the frount end.
What's stumping me is that 928 intl sells a belt 80-82 for the air pump and fan. They also sell a smog pump for cars between 80-95. According to devek's web site they doesn't offer a CART cat, with air injection for the 1980 model. Also, 928intl sells the belts and smog pumps for 78 and 79 cars. Devek doesn't offer a cat, with air injection for those cars. They're all suppost to be CART legal too, and I'm fairly sure California wouldn't allow less than OEM equipment on public roads.
For the smog pump to make any sence, it needs to inject air into the exaust system. It would also need to be ahead of the cat, right? Were, if at all, does it do this?
Thanks.
01-31-2003, 05:24 AM
#22
Burning Brakes
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Thom and Virubus,
On the Euro models (S and S2) as I have, the air from the smoke pump goes via the vacuum controlled diverter valve and a non return valve to the back of the two heads - Here the air goes into the exhaust channels - exactly as Veribus said: ASAP - HOT'
Under certain condition (I do not know when) the vacuum controlled diverter valve send the air to the inlet filter as Thom said
On the Euro models (S and S2) as I have, the air from the smoke pump goes via the vacuum controlled diverter valve and a non return valve to the back of the two heads - Here the air goes into the exhaust channels - exactly as Veribus said: ASAP - HOT'
Under certain condition (I do not know when) the vacuum controlled diverter valve send the air to the inlet filter as Thom said
01-31-2003, 05:32 PM
#25
Nordschleife Master
Old&New, I'd have to side with Thom on that one. We should try to keep with in the law. It'll keep the fines down. Also, keeping with in the law will help reduce the amount of nitric acid, CO, and O3 in the air. That is a very good thing. I like to be able to breath. I also like to keep rain water from eating my Shark's paint off. Smog pumps and cats are a good thing!
Thom, if the smog pump is working correctly, it will lower emisions. If it didn't, Porsche would have told the Feds. and if the Feds didn't agree with Porsche, there would have been a scandle. Also, if the pump actualy made emitions worse, why would European countrys start to require them?
If something is incorrect, the pump could make emitions worse, I guess. If it put heavy oils into the exaust stream, it is possible the hydrocarbons might only be partly oxidized. That might also result in extra CO. That would regester on the emisions check.
I can't see how even a screwed up pump would effect NO, or NO2. To from the NO and NO2, you need temps in the 1000 `F range. I don't honestly see that happening, outside the combustion chamber.
However, I can see a smog pump on a car where it's installed to inject air before the O2 sensor, and how that would screw with the car. If pump was removed, when the car's computer expected it to be there, the computer would try to adjust the mixture to keep the O2 in the right reading. The oppsite would be a problem too.
So yes, I guess an improperly functioning air pump could cause problems for the emision check.
Thom, if the smog pump is working correctly, it will lower emisions. If it didn't, Porsche would have told the Feds. and if the Feds didn't agree with Porsche, there would have been a scandle. Also, if the pump actualy made emitions worse, why would European countrys start to require them?
If something is incorrect, the pump could make emitions worse, I guess. If it put heavy oils into the exaust stream, it is possible the hydrocarbons might only be partly oxidized. That might also result in extra CO. That would regester on the emisions check.
I can't see how even a screwed up pump would effect NO, or NO2. To from the NO and NO2, you need temps in the 1000 `F range. I don't honestly see that happening, outside the combustion chamber.
However, I can see a smog pump on a car where it's installed to inject air before the O2 sensor, and how that would screw with the car. If pump was removed, when the car's computer expected it to be there, the computer would try to adjust the mixture to keep the O2 in the right reading. The oppsite would be a problem too.
So yes, I guess an improperly functioning air pump could cause problems for the emision check.
01-31-2003, 06:25 PM
#26
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Save the planet every day? Just not something I'm accustom to seeing on a Porsche BB.
I guess it depends how sincere he is... I mean if he were really 100%, then he would certainly not approve of running this type of car around. A true GreenWeenieLiberalTreeHuggingWacko uses mass transportation whenever possible, and drives an ULEV only when required, and never for recreation!!!
Not that I advocate gross polluting where it can be avoided, but I just can't buy those kind of statements from a driver of a 15 MPG V-8 sportscar.
I guess it depends how sincere he is... I mean if he were really 100%, then he would certainly not approve of running this type of car around. A true GreenWeenieLiberalTreeHuggingWacko uses mass transportation whenever possible, and drives an ULEV only when required, and never for recreation!!!
Not that I advocate gross polluting where it can be avoided, but I just can't buy those kind of statements from a driver of a 15 MPG V-8 sportscar.
01-31-2003, 09:00 PM
#27
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I did not pass the tough new Houston emmisions. Last year I spent $800.00 on a new airflow sensor for my '83. However when completed and tuned, my ride registered only 1% of the alloed values. Not bad for a 20 year old!
Tobin
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01-31-2003, 09:20 PM
#28
Nordschleife Master
15 mpg?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
I get alought closer to 20. Course, I'm trying to figure out how to make my car run on eighter desile, or gasoline, so I can save the 2 cents a gallon that goes with it. I'm also trying to figure out a safe way to super lean my car, get that extra few mpg. No, the math hasn't worked, yet!
btw, before one gets to wanting the the new hybred electric/desile cars, one should looking into their real efficancy, the Goverments numbers for the new Honda are pie-in-the-sky. About the only thing the new Honda is good for is short distance, stop and go traffic. Otherwise, it's kinda hard to beat the internal combustion engine with todays tech.
On the tree-hugging-green-loveing-hippie-liberal statement, I'm used to anything comeing out of California. Alought of what happens there doesn't make sence to me, or most of the people I know. Maybe I was wrong to assume Thom is from California, though...
I get alought closer to 20. Course, I'm trying to figure out how to make my car run on eighter desile, or gasoline, so I can save the 2 cents a gallon that goes with it. I'm also trying to figure out a safe way to super lean my car, get that extra few mpg. No, the math hasn't worked, yet!
btw, before one gets to wanting the the new hybred electric/desile cars, one should looking into their real efficancy, the Goverments numbers for the new Honda are pie-in-the-sky. About the only thing the new Honda is good for is short distance, stop and go traffic. Otherwise, it's kinda hard to beat the internal combustion engine with todays tech.
On the tree-hugging-green-loveing-hippie-liberal statement, I'm used to anything comeing out of California. Alought of what happens there doesn't make sence to me, or most of the people I know. Maybe I was wrong to assume Thom is from California, though...
01-31-2003, 11:31 PM
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VU,
When you get your car revving over 3K, let me know what your mpg is for the next few tanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
When you get your car revving over 3K, let me know what your mpg is for the next few tanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
02-01-2003, 11:20 AM
#30
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I'm with VU on this one.
I've harped long and loud about the silliness of removing the catalytic converters on this board [not that anyone here has been advocating this]. The reason? The same ones that were voiced a few posts back, namely that breathing right is a healthy thing, and that other problems associated with pollution [acid rain] are equally troublesome.
-As to me, I'm a committed conservative and NRA member, and I've come to my views after years of thought and honest consideration of alternative viewpoints. And none of that has anything to do with Porsche 928's.
But I also view the notion of gross pollution just for the sake of tiny gains in performance to be epicly stupid [again, not that anyone here has been advocating this].
-My dad was an electrical engineer for Detroit Edison before he recently retired, and I remember fascinating techical discussions with him on the subject of pollution. The plant he managed was coal-fired, and they spent most of their time managing a thing called "opacity", or the darkness [and thus the level of detrimental pollution] of the exhaust from the stacks. He explained to me that at certain times of the day, the EPA allowed them to produce more emmsions than others, so they did things like use cheaper high-sulphur coal during those periods, and save the expensive low sulphur less polluting stuff for the times when they weren't allowed to pollute. There were all sorts of things going on- they could actually "buy" pollution "rights" from other electricity producers, in order to prevent themselves from receiving fines from the EPA....and on and on and on. The more I listened to him, the more I became conviced that they really were not concerned with saving the environment. If they were, they would have invested the money on cleaner technology so that they didn't have to play games like that.
You see Old&New, not to pick on you or anything, but I am an honest to god car freak, not a "GreenWeenieLiberalTreeHuggingWacko", but also a car freak who does not believe that his hobby should hobble the world's ability to host human life. Sure, we could all drive hybrids, or ride bikes to work, or any one of a number of alternatives to our fuel-gobbling super cars [VU- you get 20 mpg? I get 13.5 in the city, and about 21 on the highway...on a good day!], but I choose this particular car, and simply try to do what I can to minimize its impact. For instance, I use Prestone Lo-Tox in the radiator, which is propylene glycol based and as such is not toxic to animals or humans. And I'm going to check on my air pump when I get home, in order to see if indeed it is hooked up. I put S4 cats on my S2, which didn't have them to begin with, and so now I wonder if the pump is hooked up because for some reason I remember a red cap of sorts on the bottom of the passenger side of the airbox...which means that the tube from the air pump to the intake is probably not hooked up!
ARRGGGHH! Another problem discovered!
Anyway, drive safe and do your best to keep clean!
Normy!
'85 S2 5 Speed
I've harped long and loud about the silliness of removing the catalytic converters on this board [not that anyone here has been advocating this]. The reason? The same ones that were voiced a few posts back, namely that breathing right is a healthy thing, and that other problems associated with pollution [acid rain] are equally troublesome.
-As to me, I'm a committed conservative and NRA member, and I've come to my views after years of thought and honest consideration of alternative viewpoints. And none of that has anything to do with Porsche 928's.
But I also view the notion of gross pollution just for the sake of tiny gains in performance to be epicly stupid [again, not that anyone here has been advocating this].
-My dad was an electrical engineer for Detroit Edison before he recently retired, and I remember fascinating techical discussions with him on the subject of pollution. The plant he managed was coal-fired, and they spent most of their time managing a thing called "opacity", or the darkness [and thus the level of detrimental pollution] of the exhaust from the stacks. He explained to me that at certain times of the day, the EPA allowed them to produce more emmsions than others, so they did things like use cheaper high-sulphur coal during those periods, and save the expensive low sulphur less polluting stuff for the times when they weren't allowed to pollute. There were all sorts of things going on- they could actually "buy" pollution "rights" from other electricity producers, in order to prevent themselves from receiving fines from the EPA....and on and on and on. The more I listened to him, the more I became conviced that they really were not concerned with saving the environment. If they were, they would have invested the money on cleaner technology so that they didn't have to play games like that.
You see Old&New, not to pick on you or anything, but I am an honest to god car freak, not a "GreenWeenieLiberalTreeHuggingWacko", but also a car freak who does not believe that his hobby should hobble the world's ability to host human life. Sure, we could all drive hybrids, or ride bikes to work, or any one of a number of alternatives to our fuel-gobbling super cars [VU- you get 20 mpg? I get 13.5 in the city, and about 21 on the highway...on a good day!], but I choose this particular car, and simply try to do what I can to minimize its impact. For instance, I use Prestone Lo-Tox in the radiator, which is propylene glycol based and as such is not toxic to animals or humans. And I'm going to check on my air pump when I get home, in order to see if indeed it is hooked up. I put S4 cats on my S2, which didn't have them to begin with, and so now I wonder if the pump is hooked up because for some reason I remember a red cap of sorts on the bottom of the passenger side of the airbox...which means that the tube from the air pump to the intake is probably not hooked up!
ARRGGGHH! Another problem discovered!
Anyway, drive safe and do your best to keep clean!
Normy!
'85 S2 5 Speed