928 Supercharger Crankshaft pulley
03-12-2003, 04:26 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
Quick Carl - What are you thoughts on the 10.4:1 16v engines?. Do you think it's too much compression to be supercharged?. M28/21 or 22
Also, once everything is said and done. Will you offer the blueprints and or parts to the general public?. Or an entire Kit?.
Like I said before, I'm not favoring one particular type of forced induction, I just one that'll work on my motor.
Also, once everything is said and done. Will you offer the blueprints and or parts to the general public?. Or an entire Kit?.
Like I said before, I'm not favoring one particular type of forced induction, I just one that'll work on my motor.
03-12-2003, 06:13 PM
#18
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Drew.....that compression is pretty high to be forcing manifold pressure on it. I would not push my luck there.....maybe 3 to 5 psig at the manifold?
You should get the book Maximum Boost by Corky Bell.
You should get the book Maximum Boost by Corky Bell.
03-12-2003, 07:44 PM
#20
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$25 at <a href="http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=796242&domain_id=1856&meta_id=1" target="_blank">http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=796242&domain_id=1856&meta_id=1</a>
03-13-2003, 11:23 AM
#21
Developer
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I was at the DynoJet the same day as Tim Murphy of Green Bay and his 10.5 to 1 928 4v S4 with a Vortech blower. Very nice, clean install he did himself. He had some insane horsepower and torque!
I too, thought he was nuts running that much boost on that high of compression, but he has now for 2 street driving years without a problem. He has a VERY efficient air-to-water intercooler that really does a nice job chilling his charged air, and the hemispherical combustion chamber helps a lot there too. It proves it can be done, and so I think the M29 engines would not be a problem.
I too, thought he was nuts running that much boost on that high of compression, but he has now for 2 street driving years without a problem. He has a VERY efficient air-to-water intercooler that really does a nice job chilling his charged air, and the hemispherical combustion chamber helps a lot there too. It proves it can be done, and so I think the M29 engines would not be a problem.
03-13-2003, 01:20 PM
#22
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I'm glad I only have 8.5:1 compression! I think I can run 12 psig at the manifold, but I will probably run 7-9 psig on normal mode, then switch to 12 psig if I so desire....the boost controller I purchased allows this to be done with the push of one button.
09-22-2003, 01:02 PM
#23
Developer
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Thanks for all the interest and the questions. We just went "live" with our CIS SUPERCHARGER KIT - you can find it here: www.928motorsports.com
09-23-2003, 02:11 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
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Carl,
Sounds very interesting. FWIW, the pulley setup is very different on a late model car, with the alt and the ps pump having different set-backs than on the early cars. So you would have to redo the pulley for a late model.
Greg
Sounds very interesting. FWIW, the pulley setup is very different on a late model car, with the alt and the ps pump having different set-backs than on the early cars. So you would have to redo the pulley for a late model.
Greg
09-23-2003, 07:57 AM
#25
Pro
I think this is something many on this list have been waiting for!
A couple of questions:
I don't understand how you can sell the same 9psi kit to my 10:1 compression Euro S and claim the same outputs as with a 8,5:1 US model? I would expect higher output with a Euro S engine, unless of course the blower don't raise the manifold pressure to 9psi on this freer-flowing engine? I understand it is the amount of air pumped that determines the output.
Will the 12psi racing kit really be advisable for a 10:1 2-valve head? Or again, will this "12psi" pulley deliver lower pressure for the Euro S engine?
A couple of questions:
I don't understand how you can sell the same 9psi kit to my 10:1 compression Euro S and claim the same outputs as with a 8,5:1 US model? I would expect higher output with a Euro S engine, unless of course the blower don't raise the manifold pressure to 9psi on this freer-flowing engine? I understand it is the amount of air pumped that determines the output.
Will the 12psi racing kit really be advisable for a 10:1 2-valve head? Or again, will this "12psi" pulley deliver lower pressure for the Euro S engine?
09-23-2003, 01:11 PM
#26
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Ian,
Well, it's not just the amount of air that determines output - that's just one of the factors in the equation assuming boost is equal comparing 2 similar motors...
The other things that matter include (but are NOT limited to) quantity of fuel delivered, timing of said fuel delivery, accuracy of mixture at different flow rates, ignition timing, ignition firing strength (esp at higher boosts), combustion chamber design, cams, exhaust efficiency, intake efficiency,
quality of the installation (air does not like to flow at right angles), quality of the "kit" ( I have seen 2 differet crap supercharger mounts, that flexed under boost ), BOOSTED AIR TEMPERATURE (yes, it IS that important) inter/aftercool or your motor will frag under any boost worth going to the trouble of installing. Also the design/sizing of the inter/aftercooler and its routing are important.
If you want to know how to do this stuff right, go learn from all the data that's out there. There's a ton of it. It has been known how to get huge horsepower from small displacement automotive motors for a long, long time. I'd bet before any of us on this board were around (apologies to anyone over the age of 70, you were around, glad you still are).
If you are buying anyone's kit/install - please go learn this stuff anyway. That way you won't buy one of the half-a$$ed POS kits that I've seen so far - you'll get one that works as advertised, and does so if you drive the car hard for more than 30 seconds. There is some good work out there, and sadly, some real crap. Learn the difference 'twixt the two and everyone wins. (except the guys who sell crap, and they should definately not win)
So Ian, you are running a higher static compression ratio than the US cars, which means that all other things being equal, you cannot run the same amount of "boost" that you can on a US-spec motor (HA! this could be the first time ever the europeans sent the US the better car, they just didn't know it at the time) I imagine Carl's kit runs lower boost for a Euro- motor.
Running the same amount of boost on the euro motor will result in higher cylinder pressures and temperatures, and will result in detonation quicker than on the lower comp US motor.
10:1 is kinda high for any real (12PSI up) boost, but it can be done using the correct intercooling, fuel enrichment, and tweaking. But you could probably run 6 PSI without as much work. Still must have an intercooler though - esp in Europe, where you might actually be able to "drive" the car a little hard.
Greg
Well, it's not just the amount of air that determines output - that's just one of the factors in the equation assuming boost is equal comparing 2 similar motors...
The other things that matter include (but are NOT limited to) quantity of fuel delivered, timing of said fuel delivery, accuracy of mixture at different flow rates, ignition timing, ignition firing strength (esp at higher boosts), combustion chamber design, cams, exhaust efficiency, intake efficiency,
quality of the installation (air does not like to flow at right angles), quality of the "kit" ( I have seen 2 differet crap supercharger mounts, that flexed under boost ), BOOSTED AIR TEMPERATURE (yes, it IS that important) inter/aftercool or your motor will frag under any boost worth going to the trouble of installing. Also the design/sizing of the inter/aftercooler and its routing are important.
If you want to know how to do this stuff right, go learn from all the data that's out there. There's a ton of it. It has been known how to get huge horsepower from small displacement automotive motors for a long, long time. I'd bet before any of us on this board were around (apologies to anyone over the age of 70, you were around, glad you still are).
If you are buying anyone's kit/install - please go learn this stuff anyway. That way you won't buy one of the half-a$$ed POS kits that I've seen so far - you'll get one that works as advertised, and does so if you drive the car hard for more than 30 seconds. There is some good work out there, and sadly, some real crap. Learn the difference 'twixt the two and everyone wins. (except the guys who sell crap, and they should definately not win)
So Ian, you are running a higher static compression ratio than the US cars, which means that all other things being equal, you cannot run the same amount of "boost" that you can on a US-spec motor (HA! this could be the first time ever the europeans sent the US the better car, they just didn't know it at the time) I imagine Carl's kit runs lower boost for a Euro- motor.
Running the same amount of boost on the euro motor will result in higher cylinder pressures and temperatures, and will result in detonation quicker than on the lower comp US motor.
10:1 is kinda high for any real (12PSI up) boost, but it can be done using the correct intercooling, fuel enrichment, and tweaking. But you could probably run 6 PSI without as much work. Still must have an intercooler though - esp in Europe, where you might actually be able to "drive" the car a little hard.
Greg
09-23-2003, 01:34 PM
#27
The compression is an issue, but from what has been written here on the boosted S4's, it may not be that bad. Z and Lag seem to be talking about a 1072 number for total degrees of heat during combustion. They factor in intercooling, and boost, and compression ratio.
Tim murphy had 14psi and 10:1 compression before he had a as-described "Fueling issue" which from further reading amounted to the last injector on the fuel rail not getting as much fuel as the first.
Tim murphy had 14psi and 10:1 compression before he had a as-described "Fueling issue" which from further reading amounted to the last injector on the fuel rail not getting as much fuel as the first.
09-23-2003, 01:49 PM
#28
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Greg yes supercharging has been around a long time , longer than you think .. Gotlieb Daimler had a patent in 1885 , Renault patent 1902 ........ So all this development discussion "research" is about 100 years after the fact ....... The Auborn /Cord /Duesenberg made in Indiana in the 1920s was factory supercharged . Blower Bently's the hot rods of their Era . Studebaker Hawks factory superchargered in the 1950s . Ford T-bird 1957 . ...........
09-23-2003, 02:06 PM
#29
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FYI stuff.. i ordered one and it was here in a couple of days. Cheaper than Borders etc.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846
good stuff!
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846
good stuff!
09-23-2003, 02:18 PM
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The Auborn /Cord /Duesenberg made in Indiana in the 1920s was factory supercharged . Blower Bently's the hot rods of their Era . Studebaker Hawks factory superchargered in the 1950s . Ford T-bird 1957 . ...........
......many aircraft in WWII were supercharged. P-38, B-29 ..Bf109...F-190s...That is where supercharging really saw rapid and reliable development as well as harsh operating enviroments.
here's some blown cubic inches ...
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/engines/eng43.htm
wonder what that crank would cost to make today!