AO

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. At least we both agree that the 928 is a great car that deserves our continued attention in a manner that was designed specifically for it as opposed to some hack mechanic.

That's it for me on this topic. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

Ed Ruiz

Its not a matter of whether we agree to disagree. Either you are (or are planning on) doing something that is legal, or you are not. The downside potential of a substantial fine and or imprisonment for doing what you have proposed should cause you to seek legal advice. To not seek that advice, and then get dragged into court may not be the lesson you really want to learn. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

Big Dave

Ed:

Are you threatening to report activity on this board? If you're "SWORN" to do so, why aren't you posting your ethics and legality information on the 944 board I provided the link to?

You indicated that Kinko's places the burden of legal compliance on it's customers. Why can't Andrew do the same?

Do you believe that the act of posting his electronic archive copy of the manuals on his own website (available for viewing free of charge) is illegal? Could a library allow the public to view the manuals in such a format?

(stirring the pot....flame on)

Snowball the 81 white 928

let's all maintain some dignity here and recount the golden rule: "thee may covet thy neighbour's ***, however, a snitch is the lowest form of humanity, to be despised eternally."

dr bob

Perhaps a good way to describe the situation is to relate it to something close to your heart. Might be your wife, might be your car. No matter, somebody decides that what you have is too expensive for them to buy at a price, at least at a price they consider reasonable. Your opinion, like mine, would probably be to have that somebody go find a lower cost alternative. Might be a Pinto, might be your ex-wife. They say that a Pinto isn't good enough, and they conclude as you did that your ex-wife is a dog, so they decide that it's OK to use your better stuff for a little joyriding. Hey, that somebody knows that you have a lot invested in what you have, but it just doesn't seem fair that they should have to pay all that money for initial purchase, repairs, maintenance and upkeep.


"Intellectual" property is no different from real property. You may or may not agree that theft of one is the same as theft of the other, but it is.


In the case of the manuals, there is a lower cost, lower quality option available, and that's the fiche manual set. Out of production, but we still see copies on E-bay pretty regularly.

Anybody think the $400 price of the manual sets is outrageous? Order a set of manuals for your new Ford or GM car in paper, and see what your bill is like. Whoa, you say, there's always the Chiltons or Motors or Mitchell route.


Perhaps a better option is to go ahead and create your own manual set from scratch using no existing art or text, offer digital masters on the net for whatever the market will bear, and see how quickly the copies show up for sale. No worries though, since you wrote that manual for yourself, all by yourself, and any extra use or benefit realized by others is just a great feel-good benefit for you.


----

The OC members kicked around some discussion on creating a manual from scratch, using info and experiences of the members to make something more complete and with better explanantions of things. It would be geared toward an audience that's perhaps less technically inclined than a dealer service tech. So far, that effort has produced a couple task-specific articles in the OC journal. Fizzle... Why? The folks who are qualified to write the manual already own it. They typically have no need for any dumbed-down version for themselves. And most of us know that there's not much commercial benefit to something that will be quickly copied and shared among members and non-members alike.

----


I spend part of my time developing application-specific software used to manage power plant operations. Manuals are sometimes included at significant extra cost. What does a set of operating manuals cost? Depending on the complexity of the operation, costs start at $50k an go up. A typical running unit set runs about $250k. Get the idea? This stuff doesn't grow on trees or just pop up out of the ground.

I figure I could break even at about 500 copies of a 928 Manual set, including copying costs. Sell them on CD for $200 each, but you have to buy all 500 copies at once. Of course, none of my friends in the 928 community here would ever dream of making a copy and handing it to a friend, so there would be no need for any copy-protection scheme or dongle security... right?


Send the $100k to me now and I'll get started on the project right away.


<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

bergstsm

Dave,

Check the link on a previous post of mine regarding copyright and fair use. There is a little bit of leeway when involving a public entity such as a library, but not much.

Shawn

Ed Ruiz

If someone, on this or any other BBS I frequent, states that they are involved in illegal activities, then it is my duty to report it. I'm saying this so that there's no ambiguity as to what I will or will not do. BTW, the same is true of any other law enforcement officer, or officer of the court. As soon the party of the first part confesses a crime to an officer, it is the duty of that officer to take appropriate action, which could be a warning or issuance of a summons or arrest. YMMV.

BTW, I didn't ask the person who said they were about to do something illegal. However, if they tell me they are commiting a crime, and I don't report it, then I can be charged as an accessory before or after the fact. Sorry, but I'm not taking any heat for someone elses illegal activities. If you think it's snitching, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

Big Dave

Which are you? A cop, lawyer or judge?

Greg86andahalf

Dr. Bob sums it up well.

I must correct part of what he said [quote] This stuff doesn't grow on trees <hr></blockquote>

Well, the paper used in the manuals does, but that's a minor point <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />


Greg

Ketchmi

All I can say is "Boy I'm glad you are not my neighbor, Ed!" I believe in keeping my nose in my own business and if I disagree with what someone else is doing, I avoid them. I know a lot of people that do illegal activities, from judges to officers of the law. If it was my "duty" to out them, my life expectancy would be very short indeed.

My .02c worth.

Dave

<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

Shane

As tempting as the CD version Andrew has is and the fact that I am currently in line for a manual from 928 Specialists, I can't justify cheating Porsche out of their due. Even though I am getting the manuals if and when they come in, I still can't justify it. Call me old fashion if you will but that is the way I was raised. I respect this in other people and think the world would be a better place. Since I got a $60,000 car for $10,000, I will gladly pay $350 for a set of manuals. When I do get them I'll spend $50 more or so for a bunch of heavy duty sheet protectors and and not need to do the CD thing.


Sheet Protectors----Let's all say it together---
Sheeeeeeeeeeeet Prooooooootectorsssssssss <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

V-Fib

Whether you agree or disagree, There are still people who take their oathes seriously in what ever profession that requires one. Law Enforcement,Medical,Legal,Armed forces to name a few. Imagine if they didn't. Duty,Honor,Country are more than just words to many people.(thankfully)
Anthony Tate
79/928 Silver Metallic

Normy

Ed-

Not to make an enemy here, but I fail to see why you imply the thing that (in my opinion) you are implying- namely that you are law enforcement.

Self aggrandizement is not very becoming, if that is what it is.

However, I'll run with the ball for just a second or three. In your post of December 23, you mentioned that you found out that a 928 without cats will not pass Virginia emmisions. May I ask you how you came to find this out? Was this your car? If so...

1. Did you remove the cats (and thus arrest yourself for violating a federal law)?

2. Purchase the car without cats (and thus arrest and/or question adequately the PO)?

-And one more question: As a (possible) member of law enforcement, I guess a true statement would be that you have NEVER violated speed ordinances in your PORSCHE 928. Right?

The point here is that one should not throw stones when one possibly lives in a glass house himself....

In my opinion; threats of law-enforcement actions should be confined to personal emails to the persons involved.

Normy!
'85 S2 5 speed

PS- For the year I lived in the "police-state" of Virginia, I kept my Florida tags on my car! Ha HAAAA!

A Quiet Boom

As an employee of a small adhesives company and having developed two products for that company which are now patent-pending in Europe and the US, it sickens me to hear all this talk of copyright infringement. The sad fact is I worked my butt off on those two products so that myself and my company could benefit from them, but I'm certain one of the larger companies will reverse-engineer my products and market them themselves. My company simply isn't large enough to put up much of a fight in court if that were to happen so the best we can hope for is a few years of good profits from these products before we had better have the next set of patented product on the market. In the end "copying" can kill the little guy, it doesn't make it any more acceptable if it hurts the big guy. Go buy the manuals, or figure it out yourself.

Ed Ruiz

[quote]Originally posted by Normy:
<strong>Ed-

Not to make an enemy here, but I fail to see why you imply the thing that (in my opinion) you are implying- namely that you are law enforcement.

Self aggrandizement is not very becoming, if that is what it is.

However, I'll run with the ball for just a second or three. In your post of December 23, you mentioned that you found out that a 928 without cats will not pass Virginia emmisions. May I ask you how you came to find this out? Was this your car? If so...

1. Did you remove the cats (and thus arrest yourself for violating a federal law)?

2. Purchase the car without cats (and thus arrest and/or question adequately the PO)?

-And one more question: As a (possible) member of law enforcement, I guess a true statement would be that you have NEVER violated speed ordinances in your PORSCHE 928. Right?

The point here is that one should not throw stones when one possibly lives in a glass house himself....

In my opinion; threats of law-enforcement actions should be confined to personal emails to the persons involved.

Normy!
'85 S2 5 speed

PS- For the year I lived in the "police-state" of Virginia, I kept my Florida tags on my car! Ha HAAAA! </strong><hr></blockquote>

To answer your questions.

My car has its cats, and they have never been off. The reason I know that a 928 without cats will not pass emissions inspections in VA is because they have to be on the car to pass the visual test of the inspection. Now, someone may gut them, but then the car would still have to pass the load test as well.

No one is perfect, least of all me. However, whether you agree of not, if you or anyone confesses, on this or any other BBS that can be (and is) viewed by law enforcement officers or agencies, of comitting a felony crime (and copyright infringement can be a felony depending on the dollar amount), then the officer who reads it is supposed to notify the appropriate agency of the alleged violation. If he/she does not, then he/she can be subject to being brought on chages of being an accessory. Trust me, no law enforcement officer or officer of the court wants that.

BTW, Every person in the military is allowed to keep their home state tags on their cars. There are so many military bases in VA that I could not even begin to count them all. YMMV.