icsmike

IM starting to think MK is as 928 evangelist. But sells Amsoil for a day job.

J/K.

hacker-pschorr

Thanks!

mark kibort

there is no cure!!!
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

The cool thing about the 928 (mine in particular, and scots to a certain extent) is that we are racing them today, anyone can put up and prove us wong, either on paper or on the track. as i see it now, there is no car in the world even 10 years newer that can stand a chance against a 928 with an orginal engine, or even a rebuilt original engine! actually at 10 years newer, we get in to areas of the euro M3, which has proven to be quite a contender at the track. very few cars can beat it. the 928 on occasion, but it depends on the track. proof of this can be found by well driven M3s from 1995 all over the country. however, they are 10 years newer!! go back 10 years and provide a car that even comes close. they dont exsist. especially, a C4


Mk

hacker-pschorr

Mark, I have friends with cars over 40 years old that run in the low 2:20's with the "mid-pack" in the low 2:30's at RA. Do some searches on Group 6 at your favorite track.
These are not purpose built race cars either, thse are cars that would have run in the SCCA touring car series back in the 60's.

Not to mention a handful of C4's that have recorded lap times in the 2:teens at RA, and still do every year when they return for vintage events. You really need to qualify your statements a bit better

And for the record, this is me busting your ***** because I can. Not because I'm trying to dismiss or downplay or efforts on the race track.

Charley B

I realize there is a certain sophomoric immaturity in our placing a chunk of our identity on the car we drive. Never-the-less, I thoroughly enjoy the reflection I borrow from Kibort as he campaigns a relatively stock, 20 year old 928, competitively, on the big name circuits of the West Coast.
If it weren't for his persistence in tooting his horn, I may not even be aware of it.
I think it is a very special endeavor that he includes this community in, and I will enjoy it as long as it lasts.
Of course, I realize, that without the use of Amzoil the original Holbert engine may have gone on forever.

mark kibort

Those cars are no where near stock engines!, especially the ones that are 40 years old. the C4s are also no where near stock if they are running the 2:teens at RA. Ive qualified the statements perfectly well, but for some reason you might be missing the qualfiying statement of ...... stock engined. meaning, do what you want to the chassis or bolt on mods (headers, engine mangagement, etc) but stock engine, and then see what you run.

like i said, pick a track near you and see if ANY C4 has ever run a Speed World challenge Touring car time. I think you misssed the other point as well. its not just how old the car is, but the engine has to be as old as well. we have stefanowitz that runs ALMS GT times in a turbo 911 that is 1973, but the engine is an RSR motor that has been turbo'ed. see the difference? So, i think YOU really need to qualify your statements regarding your "friends running 40 year old cars at RA". we are talking max engine modifications, an exhaust system!
the only car that really has a chance in this relm, would be the first vipers. but again, look how much newer those are.

The claim is the worlds fastest, oldest race car with its original engine. (Illl even go so far as to say, original engine design). Tell you friends, that have orginal unmodified engine'nd C4s. Ill pay for their trip out if they can beat me at laguna! It wont happen, because they cant beat a stock 92 with a set of headers!

again, if the vet crowd that is nationally known, like guys like Terry lacky, Scotty white and others are running slower than my stock 928 at well known tracks in California, what does that say for the platform. I saw the vet scotty ran. it was pretty built up and it was a C5 to boot. (kind of like the one i run with today, with 395rwhp and we are very close) C4s, forget about it. they lack the handling and are too heavy. power is pretty tough to get in the right range without some serious mods. remember, we are talking stock or close to stock engines thcat came in the car in 1986 or early 90s.

if you look at the 1994 results of the predicesor to the world challenge series, you can see guys in pretty stout cars with drivers like peter cunningham, etc, that ran 1:44s at laguna seca. (a cool down lap for me now!). still times from cars driven by pros that are 5-6 years newer!

Dont worry about bust'in my *****. it validates my statements! Again, i know you appriciate what im doing with the ole holbert car. it truely is kind of a miracle car. But more than its reliability and durability, its pretty fast, especially for a car with no internal engine mods. (stock cams, engine managment, injectors, intake, even air box!)
90 racing hours and still running strong! (knock knock!)

Mk

Panzer9

Unfortunately- bottom line- you'll get waxed... Even an old POS Vette is still a very formidable opponent.

hacker-pschorr

Ok, the 2:teens C4's are trans-am GTO cars. You didn't say any specific class!!!! On that note, a late-80's Callaway goes pretty good.

On the vintage note, I discuss this with a lot of friends. Some of these guys have original 600hp L88 427 motors. These engines made this power back in the 60's, so with a modern tune, better carbs etc.... What's not "original" about them? The chassis are original except for the safety devices. Yes they all run disc brakes (standard anyway after 65).
The 427 Cobra's are running engines that made unreal power even 40 years ago.

ok, the one guy running an 800hp sprint motor running low 2:20's I agree with.

Kevin Michael

600 hp stock L-88? Disc brakes standard after 65?

pewter82

I see that the LT5 4 cam ZR1 has been left out of this running discussion. I've seen alot of very good track times for the ZR1. Mark do you have any numbers from what you have run up against on the track ie S4 vs ZR1 ?
By no means is the ZR1 a better built car than the 928 IMHO. ( I have both and can quantify that statement)
ICSMIKE, I'm a neighbor of yours I think. I'm just a few miles south in Columbia.

jason

hacker-pschorr

Yes, 1965 corvette's were the first to receive 4-wheel disc brakes.

The L88 was "rated" at some obscene 430hp @ 5,200rpm.......they reved past 6,400rpm They were fitted with stock (very restrictive) exhaust manifolds. So add headers, find redline you are in for a ride.

L88's were 12.5:1 compression ratio - 427 cubic inch......aluminum heads...If you really want to go nuts, find a ZL1, all aluminum block. They only made two Corvette's with this motor.

So take an engine rated for that kind of power, fit it up with a more modern carb (or even fuel injection)and better racing fuel. Tune it to last a 12 lap race (road america is 4 miles) you have one hell of a vintage engine that can be all original or at least based on all original parts.

hacker-pschorr

Problem with the ZR1 is development was almost zero, so even some of the full out race versions never reached their full potential.

Street ZR1 motors (black widow program) were just shy of 500hp from Mecury Marine's tuning shop.

mark kibort

peter polli ran a ZR1 against me in World challenge GT at laguna seca. He was about 1 second off my time in 2001. I ended up beating him. (by the way, I think i did that with my 84 with the euro 5 liter.)

Mk

mark kibort

I did qualify it as a prodution based race car, with its stock original engine. trans Am GTO cars are hardly even in the same ball park!

as far as those vintage vets with 600hp . That was a stock production engine?
you can modern tune all you want, but the cars have to stop and turn. I cant tell you how many of these beautiful machines ive seen in our races. some are pretty fast. those are the ones with major suspension mods.

By the way, ive changed nothing on my 928. stock clutch, transmissions, rear end, stock bushings, all the rubber is original, stock brakes, lines, with a swaybar added.

So, its qualified well enough now. stock car up to the 90s, and nothing will keep up with a stock 928 racer with similar mods. fastest ,oldest production based race car with the original engine, no internal mods.


Mk

andy-gts

I think I understand the basis of the general statements and Have 01 vette(stock) and 93 gts (stock) and both cars are neck and neck in performance. We all know there are exceptions to everything but I believe Mark Kibort has proven his point with his car and driving record.