DoubleNutz

The verdict remains the same as I first indicated via the chronological order of events that occured betwee the two cars.

Winter 1971- Porsche and Tony Lapine drafted the basic design and concept for the Porsche 928. The 2+2 seat design was scrapped and the plan was to build a two seater.

Early 1973 (February 7, 1973)- GM design engineers and Richard Teague visit Germany to work out design issues for the 4 passenger AMC Pacer that relate mostly to needing a wider body for engine placement and exploring the Wankel engine as a possiblilty for the car.

October 6th 1973- Porsche kill development of the the 928 due to the energy crisis and the two seater 928 that was being developed became "out of of the question" so design engineers went back to the orginal 1971 4-seater plan that had been scapped.

November 1973 Richard Teague and AMC release the basic design concept for the AMC Pacer.

November 15, 1974 (one year later)- Porsche decides and confirms its desire to resume building the 928 and it would be in its original 1971 design.

1975- Richard Teague wins an Award for the Pacers modern and forward thinking design concept. Tony Lapine agrees-Yep, it sure is a great design...isn't it?

and blah blah blah...

But as per the original 1971 drawing you can see that Porsche had the design on the books FIRST in 1971 and Richard Teague designed his AMC Pacera full 2 years or 24 months later later in 1973.

Randy V

Some good detective work there Pat.

The 928 is vindicated!

DoubleNutz

Thanks Randy. I must admit I have a somewhat unfair advantage as I have a library of magazines, books and, and clippings here in my home all dedicated to the 928.

BigPorscheGuy39

That's pretty interesting. I wouldn't mind knowing what inspired the sharkish nose piece.

Lars

the lambo miaura, look at that car....at the front...i have a yellow poster of one 1969 on my wall...

DoubleNutz

I can answer that question too. However, the explaination will require quite a few more pictures than what is posted on the web site I supplied of the 1971 drawings.

There were two designs one was partially integrated and the other fully integrated (thats the one we all know and are familiar with). Full scale models were built of the car and both styles were represented on each half of the car. (there was also what seemed to be long intake slots built into the hood along the seam where the hood meets the fender).

This is often a point of contraversy but, what it came down to was aerodynamics. Porsche was very diligent and foward thinking when they made the 928 and it was no mistake that when the car is moving forward several inches after the absolute front nose point, the highest point of air pressure on the car is located there on the bumper and infront of the air-intake tubes. The high-pressure spike then drops off dramatically as a significant low pressure spike right at the intake tube at the front of the radiator (I suspect this also forced air into the radiator). The aerodynamics of the bumper increased the ram air effect on front of the air intake tubes as a high pressure spike. It is pretty impressive engineering on Porsches part. I have a picture that details the aerodymanic pressure points and drag coeficients at various point along the car. If anybody is interested in getting a gander at it.

Incidently, the second highest pressure point on the car occurs at the base of the windsheild.

The design again was purpose built and the high and low pressure spikes remain consistant on the "aerodymamically optimized nose" (928S4 design) although static and parasitic drag coeficients were altered dramatically by setting the rear spoiler apart from the new aerodynamic body contouring and paneling. Like the less conspicuous large pastic panels under the body and sill panels of the 928S4 for unproblematic handling at high speed, Porsche has always considered the impact of aerodyamics with the perfromance of the car. Although the drag coeficients of the early 928 were nothing to brag about they had their purpose.

BigPorscheGuy39

So it's aerodynamics that drove the design.

That's pretty cool. This brings up one of the interesting things about Porsche design, namely, that they were considering drag coefficients long before other manufacturers used wind tunnels to design their cars.

I've never investigated this very far, but I wonder how they figured out the right design for drag? I'm guessing two ways: (1) wind tunnel (experimentally measuring). But this probably would be prohibitively expensive in the 1970's and 1980's, or (2) by computing the points of maximum pressure based on engineering principles.

DoubleNutz

Yes, during the development of the EM design (early model) it spent most of its life in the wind tunnel. "Munga", or V2, the bare chassis of Opel Admiral was used to test the engine and front suspension. V1, the chassis of a Mercedes Benz 350SL, was used to conduct transaxel experiments and later was fitted with a 928 carburator.

Later in September of 1973 V3, an altered Audi 100 coupe, was the first open road test of the engine and transaxel together and further evolved with the first add-on fender flares. Then V4 (another Audi 100 Coupe) was the first version that widened the body by 4.3 inches. In the V4 version the the 928 engine nearly double the cars performance.

The first drivable version was of the 928 was with the partially integrated bumper and was called K1 and later evoveld as the W1 which was the first fully driveable version in 928 body and engine. W3 was completed in the fall of 1974 and really began to take a closer form to the 928 we know today although it was still in the aerodynamic testing and construction phase and still had the partially integrated bumper. From there the W3 went on to Africa where it was tested in Algeria where the fully integrated bumper was first noticed . In the Weissach test facilty the camoflaged version of the 928 (body parts from a Lotus Europa and a 911) was still being developed and this is where the contours of the fully intergrated bumper could also be noticed. The first completed body form began testing on a VW track in Ehra, and the photo finished vehicle was completd in the evening of July 7th 1976 and labeled the W6 where it went to VW windtunnels for further aerodynamic testing.

BigPorscheGuy39

Ok so they used wind tunnels back then while the North American automakers were still building boxes with wheels.

DoubleNutz

I think N.A. Automakers were actually using wind tunnels too about this time as the energery crisis forced the manufacture of aerodynamically efficient automobiles. Porsche had a different plan in mind to make a high speed rocket that would not fly off the track at speeds over 100mph (remember most auto's only had speedometers that went to 80mph)! But becuase Porsche's N.A. speedo stopped at 80MPH did not mean it was not capable of 150MPH.

2V4V

Pat,

Ahh yes, the infamous 'Joan Claybrook and the safety *****' 85 MPH speedo. Though I recall that (thankfully) short-lived nightmare was very late 70's thru early 80's.

Before we get too misty-eyed about what a terrific job Porsche did on the aerodynamics of our cars, we should keep in mind that many contemporary ('73+) cars had far better Cd than the bread-van like numbers put up by our beloved 928. There were cars for which aerodynamics was *maybe* an afterthought that were more slippery. (Truly, I LOVE my car. But in all true love, sometimes you gotta be honest.)

In historical/economic context, Porsche did a wonderful job combining style, safety, comfort, performance, and reliability. But many cars, even in the early/mid 70's, were better at cheating the air than the 928. The companies that built them may not have Porsche's dedication, but they had a helluva lot more R&D money and man-hours to spend. If Porsche had those resources, we can only dream of what might have been...

Greg

DoubleNutz

Yes, you are correct as it relates to the Cd of the 928EM. This is a question I simply cannot answer as to why Porsche allowed that to be. I am not so naive as to beleive that it to was a purpose built feature of the 928. The 80 and 81 US competiton package or Euro S spoiler aerodynamics helped to cheat some but real aerodynamic paneling and spoilers had to wait 9 yeras for the 928S4.

I still often wonder what was Porsche's thinking when it allowed the 928 to roll-out in 1978 with such a high Cd.

BigPorscheGuy39

I believe you Pat when you say the NA carmakers might have been using wind tunnels, but ya gotta admit, the design and styling of the cars then (i.e., mid 70's) doesn't really betray that fact very well. They looked pretty square, at least when you compare them to the modern NA cars - so maybe it's a matter of degree - they might have had them then, but their designs didn't show it.