BUG ,VW Beetle - porsche 911- They're all the same
11-26-2001, 05:21 AM
#46
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No, Adrian, that was the 924 wagon. It was a Turbo 924 I believe. I have pics somewhere, a few black and white ones, and a blue metallic 924.
There was a 928 truck that someone made yeah.
I am not sure as to if there was a 928 wagon.
There was a 928 truck that someone made yeah.
I am not sure as to if there was a 928 wagon.
11-26-2001, 08:46 AM
#48
Burning Brakes
Hate to burst anyone's bubble, but the Chief designer of the 928 (Tony Lapine) admitted that his design was influenced by the AMC Pacer. (So what? Even Einstein barely passed H.S. Geometry.)
According to all that I've read, Porsche boasted tha the 928 was their first "pure" Porsche. All others up till then were based on a previous model, which initially had VW roots. (Again, so what?) YMMV.
According to all that I've read, Porsche boasted tha the 928 was their first "pure" Porsche. All others up till then were based on a previous model, which initially had VW roots. (Again, so what?) YMMV.
11-26-2001, 09:58 AM
#49
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Wow.
Sheesh, I didn't know the designer really and truly was influenced by the Pacer! Ha ha. I thought it was just a load of crap!
Oh well - the designer obviously was only influenced a little bit by it. Aside from some shared contours they're totally different cars.
PS: The 928 wagon was obviously fed the same ugly pills as the 924 wagon.
Sheesh, I didn't know the designer really and truly was influenced by the Pacer! Ha ha. I thought it was just a load of crap!
Oh well - the designer obviously was only influenced a little bit by it. Aside from some shared contours they're totally different cars.
PS: The 928 wagon was obviously fed the same ugly pills as the 924 wagon.
11-26-2001, 01:33 PM
#50
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Well, thanks for clearing that up Ed - it explains my transition from another AMC product - a '73 Gremlin - to my current 928 - hoo hah!
In response to BPG's post venting his outrage at my moderator decisions - I take umbrage with a non-928 owner who's first post to this Board is an apparent jab at the model 928. Be offended if you must, it's nothing personal. Get a 928 and you'll have free license to belittle the model - those of us who do own them do it all the time here
In response to BPG's post venting his outrage at my moderator decisions - I take umbrage with a non-928 owner who's first post to this Board is an apparent jab at the model 928. Be offended if you must, it's nothing personal. Get a 928 and you'll have free license to belittle the model - those of us who do own them do it all the time here
11-26-2001, 02:36 PM
#52
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David,
is that a pic of the "four-person" 928 which was presented to Dr. Porsche as a b-day present? I think the fixed headlamps and S dish wheels give it away. If it is, I heard that he was quite fond of that car and put alot of miles on it.
Eric--looking for a Shark(or turbo S, or 931!?)
is that a pic of the "four-person" 928 which was presented to Dr. Porsche as a b-day present? I think the fixed headlamps and S dish wheels give it away. If it is, I heard that he was quite fond of that car and put alot of miles on it.
Eric--looking for a Shark(or turbo S, or 931!?)
11-26-2001, 04:30 PM
#53
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Oh for Gawd's sake Randy leave it be. Anyone with a functioning cortex and a modicum of social skill could see it was a lighthearted and friendly joke that happened, according to Ed, to also be true!
What you either missed or ignored, was that it made fun of the Pacer site...duh! It wasn't the 928 that I was making fun of! The brunt of the joke was all about the guy who made the Pacer website! Duh duh duh. I made fun of his spelling, etc. So, either
(a) you're too stupid to tell the difference or (b) you're using the fact that a 928 was in the joke to make it look to other people like I was belittling the car to turn people to your point of view. (BTW, there are 3 928's in my family
the idea that I would 'belittle' a 928 is so stupid and foreign to me you can't imagine).
Face it, you're now backing up a decision you already admitted was made in 'haste' (your words). Does 'haste' mean you removed it before you read it? I bet it does!
And...since you brought it up...
Randy, you're a poor moderator because:
1. If you're not using the Rennlist charter to back up your actions of censorship, then it's probably personal. And if it's personal, you really shouldn't be doing the job for Rennlist.
2. If you're not reading the posts, you can't be very good at moderating their content.
PS: Noting the 'gist' of the post is obviously not possible, because Randy won't post it. Even if he did post it, the worst you'd see is friendly joking you'd see in a bar at the racetrack. But if you can see any serious 'belittling' of the 928, anywhere in the post, I'll buy Randy a drink of single malt scotch the next time I'm in his part of the USA and I'll apologise to all of you on bended knee whilst hitting myself on the head with a 924 alternator and hopping on one foot.
What you either missed or ignored, was that it made fun of the Pacer site...duh! It wasn't the 928 that I was making fun of! The brunt of the joke was all about the guy who made the Pacer website! Duh duh duh. I made fun of his spelling, etc. So, either
(a) you're too stupid to tell the difference or (b) you're using the fact that a 928 was in the joke to make it look to other people like I was belittling the car to turn people to your point of view. (BTW, there are 3 928's in my family
the idea that I would 'belittle' a 928 is so stupid and foreign to me you can't imagine). Face it, you're now backing up a decision you already admitted was made in 'haste' (your words). Does 'haste' mean you removed it before you read it? I bet it does!
And...since you brought it up...
Randy, you're a poor moderator because:
1. If you're not using the Rennlist charter to back up your actions of censorship, then it's probably personal. And if it's personal, you really shouldn't be doing the job for Rennlist.
2. If you're not reading the posts, you can't be very good at moderating their content.
PS: Noting the 'gist' of the post is obviously not possible, because Randy won't post it. Even if he did post it, the worst you'd see is friendly joking you'd see in a bar at the racetrack. But if you can see any serious 'belittling' of the 928, anywhere in the post, I'll buy Randy a drink of single malt scotch the next time I'm in his part of the USA and I'll apologise to all of you on bended knee whilst hitting myself on the head with a 924 alternator and hopping on one foot.
11-26-2001, 06:22 PM
#54
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Keep on tryin' to 'splain it to me BPG, my Lithium medication almost makes you seem credible.
I'll let you know when you can stop the self flagellation with that alternator.
I'll let you know when you can stop the self flagellation with that alternator.
11-26-2001, 10:57 PM
#55
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Ed you are correct however, Tony Lapine was not influence but rather concluded that his original design conceptualization was correct after the AMC Pacer won a design award in 1973. Richard Teague admit captured the design for the AMC from an undisclosed German automobile manufacturer during 1972. That is a documeneted in most of the information I have been able to find in history sources for the AMC Pacer. I maybe able to dig up a web site or two to confirm that fact.
The pictures of the the 1971 928 designs came diretly from 928 Project pages 61 thru 71. I would be happy to scan them in and post them here if you like.
The pictures of the the 1971 928 designs came diretly from 928 Project pages 61 thru 71. I would be happy to scan them in and post them here if you like.
11-26-2001, 11:43 PM
#56
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It appears the basic design for the AMC had issues with engine size and placement. The designers of the AMC considered the Wankel engine and during 1973 (pardon my error- it was not 1972) the design engineers (including Richard Teague) return from Germany and "WA-LA" a new design appeared for the AMC Pacer!
What is the possibility that a design hungry engineer got togeher with a close friend who was also a notable design engineer who gave his design hungry buddy a gander at a set of plans for car that had essentially been scrapped as a project by a German automobile manufacturer in 1972. The US design hungry buddy wins and Award for the cars design in 1975. Years later the German automobile manufacturer decides the build the car (albeit a decision not influenced by the popularity of the award winning US built car) and the designer got to build his planned car after all.
Just a speculation on my part but here are web sites offering a bit of the chronological facts and events that occured with both cars and both designers- The AMC Pacer, Richard Teague, and Tony Lapine. I leave you to put the pieces together and recognize the obvious.
http://www.mederle.de/amc/pacgeng.html
An interesting fact is that on February 7, 1973, AMC licensed the building of rotary engines with 80-200 hp from NSU-Wankel, Germany. Maybe they had planned to replace the GM engine by their own design some time later.
AMC had quite a problem, now that the new compact car was ready, and they were not able to start all over again. So they made some changes in the body design to shoehorn the tried-and-true AMC 6 that powered all AMC vehicles from Gremlin to Jeep Wagoneer into the Pacer's engine compartment. Front wheel drive was no longer possible with that engine. A driveshaft was connected to a solid rear axle on leaf springs. The tank had to move up what can clearly be seen in the trunk. Some 25cm from bottom to edge of back window cannot possibly have been intended in the first place. But there still were rack & pinion steering and electronic ignition...
There is no agreement amongst the different sources that the Pacer was originally planned to be as wide as it is. Some say the body had to be made wider to allow fitting of the standard drivetrain to the car. The car's measurements are unique: overall length is 4 meters 35 (like the Golf III Variant or BMW 3er of the eighties), width is 1 meter 96 (like current S-Class or Ford Transit). "You only ride like a Pacer if you're wide like a Pacer" was the marketing slogan. Take a look at the folks in the movie "Wayne's World": five guys and still enough space for headbanging without hitting each other! Being seated like a king with a huge six cylinder in front of you you get the sensation of riding in a much bigger car without having to care about finding an appropriate parking spot.
Low center of gravity and wide stance ensure excellent handling. (Had the A-Class been made wider there wouldn't have been a need for ESP...) The Pacer's engine sits in a subframe isolated with rubber bushings to keep noise level and vibrations low.
The body style was revolutionary. The Pacer is the first car with cab forward design. AMC's VP of styling, Richard Teague, created a car with down-sloping hood, tunneled headlights and huge glass areas giving great visibility. The rear side windows curved around the back where a big rear door allowed good trunk accessibility. Doors like portals provided easy entry. The passenger door was even 10cm longer than the driver's door.
http://www.amcpacer.com/features/wideboy-aacuk.html
The Porsche 928 designer, Tony Lapine, admitted that the Pacer provided the inspiration for the "tail end treatment" of that particular motoring icon!
What is the possibility that a design hungry engineer got togeher with a close friend who was also a notable design engineer who gave his design hungry buddy a gander at a set of plans for car that had essentially been scrapped as a project by a German automobile manufacturer in 1972. The US design hungry buddy wins and Award for the cars design in 1975. Years later the German automobile manufacturer decides the build the car (albeit a decision not influenced by the popularity of the award winning US built car) and the designer got to build his planned car after all.
Just a speculation on my part but here are web sites offering a bit of the chronological facts and events that occured with both cars and both designers- The AMC Pacer, Richard Teague, and Tony Lapine. I leave you to put the pieces together and recognize the obvious.
http://www.mederle.de/amc/pacgeng.html
An interesting fact is that on February 7, 1973, AMC licensed the building of rotary engines with 80-200 hp from NSU-Wankel, Germany. Maybe they had planned to replace the GM engine by their own design some time later.
AMC had quite a problem, now that the new compact car was ready, and they were not able to start all over again. So they made some changes in the body design to shoehorn the tried-and-true AMC 6 that powered all AMC vehicles from Gremlin to Jeep Wagoneer into the Pacer's engine compartment. Front wheel drive was no longer possible with that engine. A driveshaft was connected to a solid rear axle on leaf springs. The tank had to move up what can clearly be seen in the trunk. Some 25cm from bottom to edge of back window cannot possibly have been intended in the first place. But there still were rack & pinion steering and electronic ignition...
There is no agreement amongst the different sources that the Pacer was originally planned to be as wide as it is. Some say the body had to be made wider to allow fitting of the standard drivetrain to the car. The car's measurements are unique: overall length is 4 meters 35 (like the Golf III Variant or BMW 3er of the eighties), width is 1 meter 96 (like current S-Class or Ford Transit). "You only ride like a Pacer if you're wide like a Pacer" was the marketing slogan. Take a look at the folks in the movie "Wayne's World": five guys and still enough space for headbanging without hitting each other! Being seated like a king with a huge six cylinder in front of you you get the sensation of riding in a much bigger car without having to care about finding an appropriate parking spot.
Low center of gravity and wide stance ensure excellent handling. (Had the A-Class been made wider there wouldn't have been a need for ESP...) The Pacer's engine sits in a subframe isolated with rubber bushings to keep noise level and vibrations low.
The body style was revolutionary. The Pacer is the first car with cab forward design. AMC's VP of styling, Richard Teague, created a car with down-sloping hood, tunneled headlights and huge glass areas giving great visibility. The rear side windows curved around the back where a big rear door allowed good trunk accessibility. Doors like portals provided easy entry. The passenger door was even 10cm longer than the driver's door.
http://www.amcpacer.com/features/wideboy-aacuk.html
The Porsche 928 designer, Tony Lapine, admitted that the Pacer provided the inspiration for the "tail end treatment" of that particular motoring icon!
11-27-2001, 03:19 AM
#57
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so what's the verdict? did the pacer guy steal the *** from the 928, or was it vice versa? or are we still unsure? I couldn't come to any conclusion with the facts!
11-27-2001, 03:30 AM
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Ahh so they did have a 928 wagon, I believe the 924 wagon was also given to him as a gift....
http://www.multimania.com/toussain/924site/photo5.htm
What do you mean that you "believe" your audi 74 Audi engine had the same one as the 924...did it have rocker arms and was it a 1.8 litre or was it actually a 2 litre?
http://www.multimania.com/toussain/924site/photo5.htm
What do you mean that you "believe" your audi 74 Audi engine had the same one as the 924...did it have rocker arms and was it a 1.8 litre or was it actually a 2 litre?
11-27-2001, 10:36 AM
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Ha! Sigh. (downs a lithium) Well, if I've learned anything from this discussion, it's that if I ever need any crap for my garden, I can always go to Randy and squeeze his head .
.