srv - Cool video. What kind of mods are on that car? Headers I presume. Is it street legal or full race? Is it an S4 ,S3 or 16-valve? Nothin like a 5 spd. 6 spd would be better. Ever wonder why nobody uses an an auto in racing?

 

Depends upon what kind of racing that you are talking about. Jim Hall did pretty well with an automatic in the Chaparral, and the old Powerglide is VERY popular in drag racing even now.

If you look at overall gear ratios, the four speed auto is actually equivalent to a five speed due to the 2:1 reduction/multiplication of the torque converter at stall, but it doesn't need to shift from the "multiplied" first to the "non-multiplied" first, as this is a smooth, stepless change as the converter hooks up.

The same "two-speed" effect will be present in each gear, if you force the box to accelerate from low RPMs in any gear. In other words, if you force the box to accelerate from 1500 RPM in second, multiplication will make second actually lower than first. Unfortunately, the converter hooks up at a lower RPM level than we would like, so you still end up giving away some performance.

If you wanted better performance from an auto matic, you could go to a higher-stall converter - but there are serious trade-offs in street driving.

Another never-ending, opinion-based thread, but at least this one hasn't degenerated to name calling and scorn - yet.

 

I'm with Steve C , I too think that in time, most Car companies will be getting further away from the manual transmissions as their customers become better educated on the use and potental (tweekability) of transmissions like the Tiptronic.

Find a Porsche with a Tiptronic trans and take it for a test drive! I think you will say the samething as most who have, "wow, now thats the best of both worlds"

Porsche isn't the only one that has used such a trans either. BMW , Volvo , MB , Audi and others have used them in their race cars for years.

Srv , great video! Sorry, I do think there are A/T's out there that can and do sound as nice.

Drew and anyone else who maybe having A/T issues, do as Adam Birnbaum writes "..go through his equipment and reset them to factory specs and start dialing it all in from scratch...". this should include having all the presures check, adjusted and any worn parts replaced.

 

Gerry...

I don't know how to link directly to a post within a thread, but I hope this will show you the car:

<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/cgi-bin/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=004117;p=3#000032" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/cgi-bin/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic; f=14;t=004117;p=3#000032</a>

'Irid' said this about his 'ex' car, an '88 S4:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Well SRV I can't say what's exactly on Dennis' car now, but I was the one who sold it to him so I'll take a crack at the mods list and Dennis can chime in with the latest and greatest.
Engine: DEVEK Level 2 Headers and Dual Borla Exhaust (I think Dennis added one more Borla to make it 3). Otherwise stock except for maintenance/reliability items and an AFPR. (nothing to bump the power other than the headers/exhaust)

Suspension: 8.5 and 10" x 18" Cup 2 wheels, DEVEK front swaybar and reinforced mounts, Bilstein "cup" shocks with custom hypercoil springs, DEVEK strut brace, lots of different alignments and ride height settings ;-)

Other: Accusump, devek rollbar, recaro seats and 6 points, lightened interior, custom front splitter, devek radiatior, gts clutch, etc.

For what it's worth, *everyone* at the 2000 One Lap of america came up to us and told us we had the best sounding car at the event, bar none. That was nice. It sounded bad-*** at the high banks of MIS when I was the only car out there screaming around the oval.

If someone has space, I have some other in-car video I can post which is kinda fun. I'll need 30 megs or so.

Dennis?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">And also this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The exhaust on the car had two borla xr1 race mufflers when I put it on, one at the rear in the stock location, and one where the cat is normally. I have one cat and one borla that are identical in size, so you can just swap one or the other in depending on your needs. I believe Dennis then had a section of the exhaust removed and had another borla welded in its place, so in normal use there are three xr1 mufflers on the car. It's still loud, those are racing mufflers and you can see straight through them.

The headers are the key to the sound, the thing rips.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Finally, from the current owner, 'Dennis K':

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">After I bought the car from Chris, DEVEK installed their latest update on the exhaust. THe cat was replaced by a longer Y-pipe connecting from the end of the two headers (for better high rpm power). So now the configuration is Level 2 headers, longer Y-pipe then two Borlas. The car is quieter with the muffler than with the cat, particularly at partial throttle.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Yep, that car definitely 'rips'!

BTW 'Dennis K', thanks for responding...

 

Ed,
I did not say an automatic can perform better than a 5speed read my post

Are you saying your 5speed has faster track times then any automatic car on the track, 928, 911, boxster or other? We all know the accomplishments of one auto track car.

I still sand by my statement!

“If your automatic is shifting properly, sharp crisp shifts it will match the performance of a manual”

Porken,
I am in total agreement as to the torque converter being an uderdrive torque multiplier until it reaches the design stall speed.

“The torque converter gives you gear splitting capabilities”

When you say the torque converter gives you gear splitting capabilities…. I am thinking of an under drive overdrive system like a split rear were you split a gear into low or high range. A torque converter does not have this function

“Variable under drive” the A28 torque converter is not a variable pitch , like the VP turbo 400,300 and Buick twin turbine than can change there stall speed from low to high by rotating there stator blades.

Srv,

This forum needs a laugh every once in a while. I read an article in an automotive magazine there was a push in the US to phase out the manual transmission. They said the manuals were pollutions machines, and it is starting to happen.

 

Steve:
What I'm saying is under track conditions, a 928 5-speed will out-perform a 928 AT of the same year and with the same HP and torque. The fact that the AT weighs more is one of many reasons why. Weight is a racer's enemy. It effectively robs HP. It also means the brakes have to work harder, and there is more mass to handle in the curves, which puts more stress on the tires and suspension. For a racer, the less weight - the better, (all other things being equal).

Moreover, even a perfectly tuned and tight AT will still experience more lag when it shifts than the manual. Moreover, the driver of the manual can hold any gear desired (so long as the rev limiter is not hit) where the AT may force a shift - even if the driver doesn't want it. :^( Ergo, the driver of the 928 manual has more control than the driver of the 928 AT, and has less weight to boot. YMMV.

 

Ed, I agree with some of your points, also means the brakes have to work harder, and there is more mass to handle in the curves, which puts more stress on the tires and suspension. For a racer, the less weight - the better, (all other things being equal).
I still say an auto 928 can hang with the best of them.

 

Steve, I gotta ask, how could a manual be a "pollution machine"?

Manuals don't lose power to the shifting machinery. Manuals don't lose power to the torque converter.

I think it's common to subtract 15% of engines power for mannual transmittions, while 17-20% is concidered common for automatics!

I know automotive companys had to come up with some inivations for their automatics when gas milage started to be counted. Things like lockable torque converters, and electronicly controled shifting systems.

How could a properly driven manual even be thought of as a polution machine by anyone that would try to test it?

Thats so crazy, it doesn't make sence!

 

Steve:
I never said the 928 AT could not hang in there. I know of at least two 928 AT drivers doing an admirable job trying. I would never take away or say anything disparaging about what they've managed to do with their 928 AT.

However, all other things being equal (which they never are) the AT is at a disadvantage to its manual counterpart. This is not only true for the 928 model, but I don't know of a single Porsche model where the AT or Tiptronic version has superior performance numbers to its manual counterpart. In every case I can think of (911, 928, 944, 993, 996, and Boxster - the manual version had/has better performance numbers than the AT or Tiptronic version. Don't take my word for it - look it up for yourself. YMMV.

 

Steve...

‘I still say an auto 928 can hang with the best of them.’

As I’m sure you know, feelings rarely mimic reality. Let’s see some time slips or track times to substantiate your claims instead of insisting on telling us how you ‘feel’. Is that asking too much?

Please, what hard and fast facts do you have to back up your claims?

 

id hate to be in a 5spd trying desperately to 'hang' with the rest of the traffic crawling across london or any other urban centre. sure, give me a 5spd as a weekend car and id have a lot of fun, at the weekends.

the auto makes sooo much more sense as an everyday driving proposition, and being the fab piece of machinery that it is, i have a wicked 928 drive all the time without needing a race track.

the shifter will only make it into drive when on a motorway, otherwise its held in lower gears. i cant imagine what a pain in the *** it must be to have to pump the clutch and juggle the brake and throttle every time you approach an intersection, roundabout or other traffic. in the auto you just drop the shifter down a notch and your in gear and ready to go! no worries if you have to stop, the car takes care of that too!

sure for the track, give me a howling stripped out 5spd with racing seats, but every day? i do enjoy the large leather seats, plush carpet, effortless auto and waves of torque!

 

This is definately an age old argument. I do feel the need to chime in though.

There is no way that the same year 928 auto is going to be faster than a 5-sp, in any contest, with even a semi competant driver.

The racetrack issue is humurous. The 5sp guys need to learn to heel and toe, the auto guys to left foot brake. Sounds like a wash to me. You need to make adjustments in driving style no matter what you take to the track, every car will be a little different as well as every transmission. Besides that I think learning a new driving skill is fun what a concept huh?

I have watched a S4 auto circulate my home track, BIR in Minnesota. Turn 9 is a medium radius sweeper. In my 944T I used to short shift to fourth to avoid shifting in the corner. I could apply full throttle to keep the speed up(and balance) even in fourth. The guy in the S4 auto is shifting from 2nd to 3rd in this corner. He told me that he could not go through in third without seriously feathering the throttle to keep it from downshifting mid corner. His solution was to enter in 2nd and shift to 3rd in the corner. That to me is an unsafe manuver if you are operating near the limit. The downshift would surely spin the car. The upshift is also an upsetting manuver. He can't take the corner full bore because of it. This is just one instance where the 5sp has clear advantages.

I am sure the auto is nice if you commute through urban traffic regularly. On the track there is no comparison. There is nothing you can do to the auto to eliminate the performance gap. You can minimize it, and I think the deeper rear end gearing and updated programming starting with the '89's does just that. You can get close but, the 5sp keeps its advantage.

I think the reason for so many autos is simply that American drivers are lazy. Anything to make it easier. There are those of us that still relish the activity of driving. For us there is only one choice. I am glad the rest of you guys are still able to enjoy what a great car the 928 is in the auto versions. I would have to concede that those with autos still can enjoy 95% of what the car has to offer.

I just have to lump myself into a more extreme group. I own the GT because it is the most extreme version(save a GTS which was twice the price). I own a BMW 750 instead of a 740 for the snarl of the V12. I own a couple MB Geleandewagens instead of a Rover or Jeep. In each case they have that slight edge over the alternative. Just the way I like it <img border="0" alt="[blabla]" title="" src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" />