TJQuill

I was under the impression that these "performance chips" that we've been talking about were the ignition chip for all of the models from 85 on (but I have to admit to having almost no knowledge in this area). Is there another chip that gets tweaked in in the S4s?

BrianG

I just finished the Probst treatise on the Bosch family of Fuel Injection systems. The upshot of it is that if it's "Jet-tronic" (post-CIS to "S")it's only a fuel control system. The ignition system is exclusive of the FI system and they don't talk. If it's "Motronic" ("S4-on"), it incorporates the ignition module right in the system, and they do talk. In fact the ignition map is incorporated in the ECM as another dimension of the whole.

Now, I'm new at this too, and might also be mistaken in assuming that these "chips" are for the LH brain. Maybe they are for the ignition module........

dr bob

A quick cut-to-the-chase:

The documentation that comes with the Autothority chipset includes a claim for copyright, with nice legal-looking language that is very similar to that which accompanies any computer software. Me thinks that the "code" on the chips, be it a "map", a lookup table matrix, or whatever, is nonetheless valuable intellectual property and worthy of protection from slimy cheapo thievin' 928 owners.

You can definitely "reverse engineer" the information, but to do that legally you need to start off with a clean bench, with no contact ever between the reverse-engineer and the protected code he is setting out to "discover". The method of discovery would be key to surviving a legal challenge.

Using the "we won't make enough money for the Big Guys to come after us" is false logic. It's not how much you made, it's what you have that can be siezed. Autothority is obliged to prosecute any and all violations that they are aware of. You decide to sell twenty of these for $20 profit each, and they have the right to enforce a judgement for $12,000 plus their legal fees. Since you all know that it's stealin', they may just try for a little butt-spanking too, so that others will know that you messed with them and shouldn't have. Add in a little conspiracy and other criminal stuff if you want.

Bottom line-- If you want to develop some better chips, by al means do it. There are several piggy-back units that allow you to customize and then duplicate a chipset for your own car. Louie Ott has been using one for a while, maybe he will take a set of "these work safely in all the cars" chips and donate them to the group for no charge. Of course, he might want some $$ for insurance, make you sign every page of that thick "yer on yer own" liability release, and collect a small profit to cover the cost of the Dastek and the PROM burner. Maybe he would like some compensation for all the time he's put in on the chip development so far, too. Darn-- we are getting right up into the $$ range that the Autothorities of the world charge for these chips. Plus, the "safe for all cars" version is just about identical to the stock map that you already own. Sound familiar?

I have a burner someplace that plugs into a proprietary card/port on an old PC. I don't believe that modern PC's even accept the old cards like the burner uses, so I may have to unearth the old Pentium 90 that still runs DOS and speaks to the ISA bus.

For me it was just cheaper and easier to buy the chips from Autothority. I admit that I was tempted to copy a map of them before installation, but then I remembered the Golden Rule.

Let your conscience guide you.

dr bob

Old & New

Gee, dr bob, I'm not sure I like the tone of all that. I started this thread as a discussion of the legal aspects of cloning chips, just to get a feel for what is legit & what might not be. As the thread developed, I was quite clear about my interest in evolving this as a grass-roots open source project, and have no intention of simply copying and profiting from someone else's product.

I foresee a website loaded with tweaked values & feedback from participants. Maybe the project would evolve into having a piggyback device that people could borrow in order to determine their best settings, then compile the data for all to see & use... I don't know... This is just an idea in its infancy. Someone mentioned something along the lines of "you can't patent facts". If a particular 928 develops "x" more horsepower with the ignition timing advanced "y" degrees over stock, then that information is factual & public domain.

Let's say I started a thread regarding possibly all of us sharing specialized tools that are only needed once in a blue moon... wouldn't it be nice to have a timing belt gauge, a mixture wrench, etc. at your disposal? Does that sound O.K., or would we be depriving the tool manufacturers of their "right" to sell the same tool to each of us, like pirating software?

And no, you may not beg the question... we "slimy cheapo thevin' 928 owners" do not "know that it's stealin'". If this project crowds the aftermarket companies, then so be it; I would certainly not lose any sleep over it. It's a free market & innovation rulz.

Now what's this about that burner you got there? I bet you keep it in the drawer with your pirate satellite gear.

dr bob

Sorry that my tone was offensive to you. Continuing on that theme...

I perceive a big temptation to just copy the works of others. I got that perception from the thread subject, "... cloning of chips". Didn't mention development of new maps anywhere.

Many moons ago, I dabbled in a modified controller for my Saab Turbo. The factory brain had roasted itself alternator voltage regulator failed... fair warning given!), and the Swedes want the same for a Saab brain as the Germans want for a 928 brain. So I set about "cloning" the brain. As many have observed, the mult-layer boards and the wiped chip ID's, coupled with some proprietary Bosch chips, made "cloning" impossible. So I decided that "reverse engineer" would be a better way to go about it. After a week of spare-time fabrication, I had a working controller. After a month of road-going analysis and fine tuning, I had a pretty healthy-running car.

That month of fine tuning is the key. I drove with an infrared exhaust analyzer in the car, tied in to my laptop data-gathering system. Fuel pressure, FI performance, ignition timing, manifold pressure, engine RPM's, throttle position, knock sensors, EGT TC at the turbine inlet, TC's under the plugs, coolant temp, and road speed were all logged. Once I had all the info I needed, I rebuilt the box with no adjustments available, and burned the map into a couple mil-spec PROM's. It would have been a lot cheaper to buy a new brain, but not nearly the learning experience. Plus I wouldn't have been able to boost the power so much.

Fast-forward to today. I know that you are ready to go out and spend the $thousands necessary for the datalogger and all the sensors. I know that you are willing to commit the time to developing a chipset for your car, after learning how the map in the PROM affects the way the car runs. Then you will be willing to copy the set that runs good on your car, and share it with everybody on the list for the cost of a bare PROM, plus shipping, so that all can benefit from your investment.

Then you start the process over, with a borrowed car from a different year, and away we go again.

I suspect that a more likely scenario is that someone will quietly offer a "donor" chipset, it will be read and duplicated, and the sensor and datalogger folks will rest easy at night, knowing that there won't be those late 'support' calls about knock sensor filter parameters. Like the title says, "cloning".

In my spare time, I work on turbine controls and the related systems used in power plants. Small improvements, fractions of a percent of fuel and thermal efficiency, translate into $millions in revenue improvement for plant owners. So I happen to have a lot of the required equipment just lying around for doing this stuff. The mapping time can be compressed if you have access to a good brake dyno. I use big electric generators on my projects these days, and invest carefully in the time needed to reinvent the wheel.

I bought that burner just for the Saab project, and it hasn't been used since.

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Old & New

dr bob, dr bob,

Would I be repeating myself explaining that I started the thread as an exploratory discussion of legalities, and ended up focusing on an open source project? Mmm.

As far as doing the extensive remapping that you describe, I have no aspirations. I hope not to reinvent the wheel, but (repeating again) would be more focused on providing a forum for interested parties to share experiences and tweak their own chips. There seem to be no legal issues there, and it should not offend anyone's sensibilities.

I may be mistaken, but I think it is more in the spirit of this board to have an open, shared project that everyone can benefit from than to be feverishly trying to protect the interests of the aftermarketers.

So, is that burner compatible with the D27C256D-15, or what???