Forget SuperChargers - Lets Talk Twin Turbos
01-20-2003, 01:32 PM
#47
I was going to start this thread myself but I'm currently on vaca in FL.
I'd look into the Chrysler turbo sites; there are tons of the 4cyl turbo engines made for all sorts of applications and are easily modified with lots of HP for little $$.
Another place to look is with Garret as they have(had?) a line of variable nozzle turbos which brings the possibility of equal performance with only 1 turbo and it's plumbing.
I hope to re-join this thred when I get home as I have some unique and cheap ideas that I've been tossing around.
I'd look into the Chrysler turbo sites; there are tons of the 4cyl turbo engines made for all sorts of applications and are easily modified with lots of HP for little $$.
Another place to look is with Garret as they have(had?) a line of variable nozzle turbos which brings the possibility of equal performance with only 1 turbo and it's plumbing.
I hope to re-join this thred when I get home as I have some unique and cheap ideas that I've been tossing around.
01-20-2003, 02:10 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by GoRideSno:
<strong>We have to make cheap power for the 928. As new cars get faster and ours don't, we will see more of them leaving the roads for the dismantlers.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Andy,
That might be true if "faster" was all that mattered. But I don't see people scrapping their early model 356's, 911's, etc. just because they're not the newest fastest thing anymore.
"Legends are made in years, not seconds."
<strong>We have to make cheap power for the 928. As new cars get faster and ours don't, we will see more of them leaving the roads for the dismantlers.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Andy,
That might be true if "faster" was all that mattered. But I don't see people scrapping their early model 356's, 911's, etc. just because they're not the newest fastest thing anymore.
"Legends are made in years, not seconds."
01-22-2003, 02:16 PM
#50
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I have a lot of experience with the twin turbo setup on a 928. I can tell you it is very complex to fit such a system under the car. Mine runs two IHI RHB-6 turbochargers mounted to custom fabricated manifolds. The manifolds are really just large collector pipes with stubby pipes welded on with flanges that mount to the heads (not that fancy). The wastegates are external poppet style units with springs set to blow at about 8 psig.
There is a lot of hand fabricated piping under the car that was made by an artist (it is that nice)....basically probably spent many weeks cutting, welding, fitting, and then welding some more to make it all fit.
The car runs an air research intercooler where the two compressed air pipes join and get sent through the air flow meter back to the throttle body.
The turbos are mounted so low it is impossible to drain oil back to the crankcase. Oil return is done with a scavenging system and works well, until the belt breaks and your fast 928 turns into a slow ground-cloud making machine...twice.
If you set your mind to it and had access to a lot of mandrel bent piping and a good tig welder it can be done. Mine was done back in 1983 and the cost then was an astounding $16,500. My car was converted as a swap Reeves made with a PR firm out of Pittsburgh. My car was the 2nd one converted. Later model year cars had their compression cut by internal engine machining (not necessary in my estimation). The 81 model year compression ratio of 8.5:1 is just ripe for turbocharging.
Here are the costs today as I see it:
Turbos: $3,500
Manifolds: Easily $1,000
Custom Exhaust: $1000
Wastegates: $1000+
Intercooler: $800
Fuel enrichment: $800+
Piping back to throttle body: $1000
Misc: $1000+
I would guess you could do the whole thing for about $10,000 in parts cost. Plan on at least two weeks, more like four under the car to fit it all in there.
I have never run the car on a dynojet, but the performance is pretty impressive:
0-60 is about 5.5 sec (only 3 psig manifold pressure in 1st gear)
1/4 mile 13.6 @114 MPH
There isn't much lag, I get boost as low as 2,200 RPM, which is pretty nice. Boost holds at about 8 psig right up to the redline.
I am getting ready to install an electronic boost controller and ramp up the manifold pressure to right around 11 psig. I'm hoping to see about 350 to the wheels, but time will tell.
Rumor has it there was one entire kit left over that was sold to one of the owners of the last cars Callaway converted.
Maybe I should dismantle my car then copy and fabricate a kit to sell to you guys? If it was done in 1983, it certainly can be done today.
To do it right, I would use a stand alone engine management system like a Motec, and even tag on the ignition expander module. Can you say big bucks there? Bad fuel and ignition curves can cost you a lot of HP.
There is a lot of hand fabricated piping under the car that was made by an artist (it is that nice)....basically probably spent many weeks cutting, welding, fitting, and then welding some more to make it all fit.
The car runs an air research intercooler where the two compressed air pipes join and get sent through the air flow meter back to the throttle body.
The turbos are mounted so low it is impossible to drain oil back to the crankcase. Oil return is done with a scavenging system and works well, until the belt breaks and your fast 928 turns into a slow ground-cloud making machine...twice.
If you set your mind to it and had access to a lot of mandrel bent piping and a good tig welder it can be done. Mine was done back in 1983 and the cost then was an astounding $16,500. My car was converted as a swap Reeves made with a PR firm out of Pittsburgh. My car was the 2nd one converted. Later model year cars had their compression cut by internal engine machining (not necessary in my estimation). The 81 model year compression ratio of 8.5:1 is just ripe for turbocharging.
Here are the costs today as I see it:
Turbos: $3,500
Manifolds: Easily $1,000
Custom Exhaust: $1000
Wastegates: $1000+
Intercooler: $800
Fuel enrichment: $800+
Piping back to throttle body: $1000
Misc: $1000+
I would guess you could do the whole thing for about $10,000 in parts cost. Plan on at least two weeks, more like four under the car to fit it all in there.
I have never run the car on a dynojet, but the performance is pretty impressive:
0-60 is about 5.5 sec (only 3 psig manifold pressure in 1st gear)
1/4 mile 13.6 @114 MPH
There isn't much lag, I get boost as low as 2,200 RPM, which is pretty nice. Boost holds at about 8 psig right up to the redline.
I am getting ready to install an electronic boost controller and ramp up the manifold pressure to right around 11 psig. I'm hoping to see about 350 to the wheels, but time will tell.
Rumor has it there was one entire kit left over that was sold to one of the owners of the last cars Callaway converted.
Maybe I should dismantle my car then copy and fabricate a kit to sell to you guys? If it was done in 1983, it certainly can be done today.
To do it right, I would use a stand alone engine management system like a Motec, and even tag on the ignition expander module. Can you say big bucks there? Bad fuel and ignition curves can cost you a lot of HP.
01-22-2003, 08:23 PM
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John...
Hey man, I thought you were going to have the car dyno'ed for us at the beginning of the year! If the car weren't so impressive, it wouldn’t be that big of a deal.
But we're talking 'bout, Da' Basta’d...
I do think that 350 rwhp may be a little optimistic though. According to ‘Z’’s calculator:
<a href="http://www.superchargeronline.com/hp_calculator.asp?submit=1" target="_blank">http://www.superchargeronline.com/hp_calculator.asp?submit=1</a>
..220 flywheel hp at 8 psi should give you approximately 277 rwhp.
And at 11 psi, 304 rwhp.
Of course it’s just an estimate, but it’ll be interesting to see what your car actually makes.
As a side note, there is a guy close by who has an ‘83 Calloway Twin-Turbo 928. I found it when I looked at his ’88 5-speed. He said the engine was completely redone with this and that, but the driver side turbo sucked oil and the car looked like a huge insect fogger under boost.
If any of you look at AutoTrader.com you may have seen it there several months ago. He listed his ’88, but the picture of the car contained both of them from a rooftop shot.
Hey man, I thought you were going to have the car dyno'ed for us at the beginning of the year! If the car weren't so impressive, it wouldn’t be that big of a deal.
But we're talking 'bout, Da' Basta’d...
I do think that 350 rwhp may be a little optimistic though. According to ‘Z’’s calculator:
<a href="http://www.superchargeronline.com/hp_calculator.asp?submit=1" target="_blank">http://www.superchargeronline.com/hp_calculator.asp?submit=1</a>
..220 flywheel hp at 8 psi should give you approximately 277 rwhp.
And at 11 psi, 304 rwhp.
Of course it’s just an estimate, but it’ll be interesting to see what your car actually makes.
As a side note, there is a guy close by who has an ‘83 Calloway Twin-Turbo 928. I found it when I looked at his ’88 5-speed. He said the engine was completely redone with this and that, but the driver side turbo sucked oil and the car looked like a huge insect fogger under boost.
If any of you look at AutoTrader.com you may have seen it there several months ago. He listed his ’88, but the picture of the car contained both of them from a rooftop shot.
01-22-2003, 09:16 PM
#53
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John on the Bastard - It was a US Spec 928? If so, the stock HP was @ 220hp. Along with the TT, you est. 13.6 in 1/4 mile, which is Frickin fast.
Let's say that I fab a TT setup for my S2, stock comp @ 10:4:1 and 310HP stock. What kind of guestimation do you think a TT will do for my S2,( if my compression level isn't too high to add a TT?.)
I'm speculating an EXTREME power increase to equal an 11 sec 1/4 mile?. I'm I way off and dreaming?.
This information below is with a supercharger set up @ 8 psi boost with a 2 core intercooler. Pretty damn impressive HuH?.
Your Entries:
Existing horsepower: 310 flywheel HP
Planned level of boost: 8
Planned fuel octane rating: 92
Intercooler / Aftercooler 2-Core
Estimated Results:
HP Loss due to timing adjustment: 0
Est. flywheel HP with supercharger: 488.529
Est. rear wheel HP with supercharger: 390.8232
Total HP Gain: 178.529 flywheel HP
Percentage Gain: 57.59 %
Comments:
Good intercooler setup.
No conflicts - this is a good combination
Let's say that I fab a TT setup for my S2, stock comp @ 10:4:1 and 310HP stock. What kind of guestimation do you think a TT will do for my S2,( if my compression level isn't too high to add a TT?.)
I'm speculating an EXTREME power increase to equal an 11 sec 1/4 mile?. I'm I way off and dreaming?.
This information below is with a supercharger set up @ 8 psi boost with a 2 core intercooler. Pretty damn impressive HuH?.
Your Entries:
Existing horsepower: 310 flywheel HP
Planned level of boost: 8
Planned fuel octane rating: 92
Intercooler / Aftercooler 2-Core
Estimated Results:
HP Loss due to timing adjustment: 0
Est. flywheel HP with supercharger: 488.529
Est. rear wheel HP with supercharger: 390.8232
Total HP Gain: 178.529 flywheel HP
Percentage Gain: 57.59 %
Comments:
Good intercooler setup.
No conflicts - this is a good combination
01-22-2003, 09:19 PM
#54
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I think John's twin turbo 928 is ahead of its time. I fully agree with Turbo Tims ideas. I know it can be done, just who wants it? I would like to know something Turbo Tim you said anything could have a turbo how bout the swamp monster? I would love twin turbos
Curious George
Curious George
01-22-2003, 09:28 PM
#55
George,
You would have to lower your compression ratio and get different cams but your Chevy powered 911 would probably be the easiest to do and would fit beautifully. Heck, you could probably find the manifolds and piping already done. Of course, you'd have to run the intercooler plumbing a little differently but you could use a 911 turbo intercooler, a beefy one, with a different rear engine cover.
Here ya go George: <a href="http://www.bankspower.com/Banks_FridayNight_012502.cfm" target="_blank">http://www.bankspower.com/Banks_FridayNight_012502.cfm</a>
Man, that would look smooth in the Swamp Monster! I guess you would get the 1600 hp kit? <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
You would have to lower your compression ratio and get different cams but your Chevy powered 911 would probably be the easiest to do and would fit beautifully. Heck, you could probably find the manifolds and piping already done. Of course, you'd have to run the intercooler plumbing a little differently but you could use a 911 turbo intercooler, a beefy one, with a different rear engine cover.
Here ya go George: <a href="http://www.bankspower.com/Banks_FridayNight_012502.cfm" target="_blank">http://www.bankspower.com/Banks_FridayNight_012502.cfm</a>
Man, that would look smooth in the Swamp Monster! I guess you would get the 1600 hp kit? <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
01-22-2003, 11:29 PM
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SRV wrote:
"As a side note, there is a guy close by who has an ‘83 Calloway Twin-Turbo 928. I found it when I looked at his ’88 5-speed. He said the engine was completely redone with this and that, but the driver side turbo sucked oil and the car looked like a huge insect fogger under boost."
I looked at this car a couple years ago and according to Calloway they never built a 928 after 1982. At that time the owner, John Scott, was selling it as an 84 car. The car was really ratted out and the owner was so full of BS that you couldn't assume anything he said as the truth. I was with a friend when I looked at the car and I'll never forget what my friend said when we got back into my car; "that guy is everything I DON'T want to be." I thought it was funny. The car may have been something at one time in its life but it was so butchered up that it was basically at a point of no return when I saw it.
"As a side note, there is a guy close by who has an ‘83 Calloway Twin-Turbo 928. I found it when I looked at his ’88 5-speed. He said the engine was completely redone with this and that, but the driver side turbo sucked oil and the car looked like a huge insect fogger under boost."
I looked at this car a couple years ago and according to Calloway they never built a 928 after 1982. At that time the owner, John Scott, was selling it as an 84 car. The car was really ratted out and the owner was so full of BS that you couldn't assume anything he said as the truth. I was with a friend when I looked at the car and I'll never forget what my friend said when we got back into my car; "that guy is everything I DON'T want to be." I thought it was funny. The car may have been something at one time in its life but it was so butchered up that it was basically at a point of no return when I saw it.
01-23-2003, 12:16 AM
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George,
We can turbo anything! Here are a few pics of some of the equal length turbo headers we have built.
<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/supraheader001.jpg" target="_blank">http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/supraheader001.jpg</a>
<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/skylineheader001.jpg" target="_blank">http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/skylineheader001.jpg</a>
<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/rangerheader001.jpg" target="_blank">http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/rangerheader001.JPG</a>
We can turbo anything! Here are a few pics of some of the equal length turbo headers we have built.
<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/supraheader001.jpg" target="_blank">http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/supraheader001.jpg</a>
<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/skylineheader001.jpg" target="_blank">http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/skylineheader001.jpg</a>
<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/rangerheader001.jpg" target="_blank">http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/rangerheader001.JPG</a>
01-23-2003, 08:51 AM
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Tim...
So you saw it too!
I must have been mistaken regarding the year of the car. He said it has IRP(?) rod bolts, lower compression pistons, etc, etc. He said he had a friend who works on turbo engines and that he can stop the engine from smoking for free since he loves challenges. I'm thinking to myself, if that were true, then why didn't you have it done? He insisted that with the driver side turbo, you can dip your finger into something on that turbo and there’d be a pool of oil in that location, thus the smoking. At the time, I wasn’t up on turbo’s so I can’t tell you what that location was. Can anyone offer an explanation?
The car on it’s radiator ledge had a Calloway badge; I think it was gold or bronze. The next day I called Calloway inquiring about the car, but they said back then, they did not keep records on the cars they built, unlike nowadays. So they were unable to confirm nor deny the existence of an official ‘84 Calloway 928.
I was thinking for a good price, at the very least it’d be a project car. But in the end, I just couldn’t trust the guy as far as I could throw him as Tim noted, and as Ed Rooney’s secretary advised not to (..Ferris Bueller, classic!).
It was funny when I was speaking to the owner over the phone regarding the black ’88, in response to a question, he said that there’s NO WAY you want to buy a 928 that was repainted, blah blah blah, and this car’s paint is all original. Well, after 10 seconds of looking, I discovered the car has been sprayed on the passenger rear quarter. I point it out to him and he insisted it’s not true, where are the spray lines?! I patiently ask him to open the passenger door and simply pointed to where the door latches as it was plain to see. He then effortlessly backpedals and downshifts saying that it was a professional job, blah blah blah, etc, etc, etc. This is just one of many ‘inaccuracies’ that occurred.
So yeah, he was definitely full of it.
So you saw it too!
I must have been mistaken regarding the year of the car. He said it has IRP(?) rod bolts, lower compression pistons, etc, etc. He said he had a friend who works on turbo engines and that he can stop the engine from smoking for free since he loves challenges. I'm thinking to myself, if that were true, then why didn't you have it done? He insisted that with the driver side turbo, you can dip your finger into something on that turbo and there’d be a pool of oil in that location, thus the smoking. At the time, I wasn’t up on turbo’s so I can’t tell you what that location was. Can anyone offer an explanation?
The car on it’s radiator ledge had a Calloway badge; I think it was gold or bronze. The next day I called Calloway inquiring about the car, but they said back then, they did not keep records on the cars they built, unlike nowadays. So they were unable to confirm nor deny the existence of an official ‘84 Calloway 928.
I was thinking for a good price, at the very least it’d be a project car. But in the end, I just couldn’t trust the guy as far as I could throw him as Tim noted, and as Ed Rooney’s secretary advised not to (..Ferris Bueller, classic!).
It was funny when I was speaking to the owner over the phone regarding the black ’88, in response to a question, he said that there’s NO WAY you want to buy a 928 that was repainted, blah blah blah, and this car’s paint is all original. Well, after 10 seconds of looking, I discovered the car has been sprayed on the passenger rear quarter. I point it out to him and he insisted it’s not true, where are the spray lines?! I patiently ask him to open the passenger door and simply pointed to where the door latches as it was plain to see. He then effortlessly backpedals and downshifts saying that it was a professional job, blah blah blah, etc, etc, etc. This is just one of many ‘inaccuracies’ that occurred.
So yeah, he was definitely full of it.
01-23-2003, 01:48 PM
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Guys,
There were 5 Callaway 928s build at Reeves shop in Old Lyme, CT. Mine is No. 3, Car one was a single RayJay equipped car which was dismantled by Devek and now has a 300 HP Euro motor in it. The rumor was it had smashed piston lands and the motor was completely trashed when Marc saw it. Car No. 2 was supposed to have been destroyed. Car 3 is at my house. Car 4 was supposedely wrapped around a pole and car 5 resides in Upstate NY (I have talked to the other owner). I know of only two remaining examples, but if anybody has info about this other car, I would like to hear it or have a contact number. From the sounds of it, some waders might be in order...
Sounds like this mystery guy may have bought a wrecked car and done the work himself. I think the last model year car they did was a 1982 model, which was black.
To recreate what was done would be very tough. The kit would almost have to be hand fitted to the car. Trust me, if I had a way to duplicate the piping and the like, I would do it. Drew, I don't know how well a 10:1 compression motor would take to turbocharging. I think I would try to lower the compression first, but I guess it is possible. Or maybe look at a very low boost application, like 5 spig or less.
I'm still calling around to try ang get some maps for my IHI RHB6 units. IHI has little info here stateside, so I might have to get it from Callaway...although their early car records are quite sketchy as well.
Still trying to piece together this puzzle...getting closer every day...
There were 5 Callaway 928s build at Reeves shop in Old Lyme, CT. Mine is No. 3, Car one was a single RayJay equipped car which was dismantled by Devek and now has a 300 HP Euro motor in it. The rumor was it had smashed piston lands and the motor was completely trashed when Marc saw it. Car No. 2 was supposed to have been destroyed. Car 3 is at my house. Car 4 was supposedely wrapped around a pole and car 5 resides in Upstate NY (I have talked to the other owner). I know of only two remaining examples, but if anybody has info about this other car, I would like to hear it or have a contact number. From the sounds of it, some waders might be in order...
Sounds like this mystery guy may have bought a wrecked car and done the work himself. I think the last model year car they did was a 1982 model, which was black.
To recreate what was done would be very tough. The kit would almost have to be hand fitted to the car. Trust me, if I had a way to duplicate the piping and the like, I would do it. Drew, I don't know how well a 10:1 compression motor would take to turbocharging. I think I would try to lower the compression first, but I guess it is possible. Or maybe look at a very low boost application, like 5 spig or less.
I'm still calling around to try ang get some maps for my IHI RHB6 units. IHI has little info here stateside, so I might have to get it from Callaway...although their early car records are quite sketchy as well.
Still trying to piece together this puzzle...getting closer every day...