jim morehouse

Ok, after a great deal of procrastination, I finally have
the pdf of the full, "9 volume", hard copy shop manuals
done. The image quality is great, unlike the
previous
fiche version.

Here's what's on the CD:
-a 'super set' Table of Contents that has the TOC from
each volume.
This is 27 pages and is very detailed. To make navigation
easier, I put the list of "Repair Groups" as the first page
and then linked each line to the appropriate spot in this
Table of Contents. The other 26 pages have every line item
linked to the proper page in the shop manuals so I can go
right to the proper page. Or, of course, just
browse thru any of the volumes or the TOC. I also put a
bookmark on each volume/file so that you can easily return
to the 'super' TOC. This is because if you use a link in
the TOC to jump to a volume in the shop manual and then do
some browsing, you have to repeatedly hit the 'back' button
to go back to the TOC....this way you can just hit the
bookmark when you're done browsing.

-organization is one file per volume exc the wire diagrams.
There I have one file for each year plus one file which
contains all

-text searchable: The manuals are all text searchable BUT
the OCR program did not pick up everything so it's not
100%. This is a hard function to test completely. I
tested the "find" and probably got about 70% accuracy
(YMMV..could be worse on other text strings) so if
I do a search and find the item, great. If I don't
find it, then it may still be there but the text wasn't
recognized as "text" by the program and I have to
navigate thru the TOC to find it. Not too bad since
it's very detailed..it's when your trying to 'thumb thru'
the hard copy that things get frustrating w/r to the
organization. The TOC solves a lot of this.


I'm
playing around now with the latest OCR program from
Scansoft and may (can't promise) run the manuals thru there
to get near 100% searchability. A bit time consuming since
you need to do page by page. The other project I'm
contemplating is the generation of a complete
index...searchable would be nice but a little tougher to do
but even a really good MSWord index would make life a lot
easier.

Let me know if you want to borrow the CD or if you want more info on how it was done.

Jim
jim928@ptd.net
information junkie

Tony

WOW!
Thats pretty cool jim! Be nice to throw a disc in the laptop out in the gagrage while one works!

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> to your work!

ViribusUnits

I do have to ask.

What about copywrite issues? IIRC, copywrites never expire, and Porsche certainly has the copy write on the origionals.

Wouldn't they want to atleast get paied for it?

tdelarm

Damn… just completed what I would have considered to be a thought provoking mature response complete with research and links for ViribusUnits to ponder in regards to Jim’s PDF efforts but after reading it I realized, I really don’t give a S_ _ T anymore about the manual copyright issue per say. Sorry, I know you are probably expecting more from me but I got a headache.

ViribusUnits,

My response is by no means directed directly at you, but only at what I view as being a very minor issue in contrast to what’s really going on in this world.

In a previous thread I stated I’d keep my opinion to myself , locked in the vault but this “Copyright thing” has been beaten to death and analyzed beyond belief and for what I ask? A few dollars in printing profits for...all intense purposes...an informationally incomplete manual…“Intentionally” printed in limited quantities forcing overprice and again, for what I ask? An out-of-production car, mine approaching 15 yrs of age if you will, that was never really appreciated nor understood by most except a few dedicated nonconformist (insert your name here) like myself.

Someone should (that being Porsche or the true copyright holder) be kissing our butt’s and supporting our endeavors that support theirs, a project viewed by many as a failed project, one never really garnering full support by that so called “true Porsche enthusiast” which of course as “we” know, is a bunch of crap as our sharks are truly, the first clean paper concept designed Porsche, built by Porsche, for Porsche…” THE VERY FIRST ONE PERIOD! <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

So let me break this down… <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> we’re talking about a manual, somewhat incomplete at best, purposely printed in SMALL QUANTIES to keep purchase price up, for an auto that holds little resale value and is extremely expensive to maintain and repair. I fail to see the logic here Spock!

Produce the manuals in both paper and CD form at a reasonable price for anyone in need that’s willing to brave the financial commitment that comes with shark ownership and this topic would vanish…be gone and lost forever. <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

Till then, I support Jim’s or anyone else’s efforts in doing otherwise. However, my opinion here DOES NOT INCLUDED photocopying the manuals for resale purposes to someone dumb enough like me that would buy them. And please, don’t tell me if I can’t afford the manuals then I have no right owning a shark as I’ve noticed most 928 owners are by no means millionaires. Just good people with a great passion for a very unique car. Also, I have no problems with copyright laws and bla bla bla…! <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" />

Tim Delarm
<img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

P.S…ever wonder how many manuals are sold, the profit margin or how many shark owners are still roaming around? Be interesting to know.

Drewster67

Question - I thought it was only a violation if someone SELLS the manual to a second or third party?. Like that SchackleCrook Yo-Yo. Is it a violation if someone "loans out" their manual to a fellow shark owner?. If it isn't, I would like to follow up on the offer. That way I can set up my spare PC in the garage and network it to my server.

PS - Jim, I'm going to drop you a line.

ViribusUnits

tdelarm

I agree with you. There were what, 50,000 something cars produces, total, so thats a max of 50,000 copys of the shop manual. Plus it keeps up a good flow of parts with the Porsche lable flowing out. I don't see Porsche loseing any pennys, but thats just me.

I'm not realy rich enough to afford all the parts I need for my car, and then pay a 350 dollars on top of it for "extra" manuals. That drives me nuts.

I'm not so much worryed about it being moraly correct, because I think that that book should be in the public domain, but...

What I'm worryed about is some penny pinching lawer that works for Porsche in the US noticeing, and asking me to pay some 500 dollar fee for something like this, because I paid the guy to put it on CD for me. I couldn't fight him in court, and I'd hate to have to pay the fee.

I'm just paranoid. It's like interst to me, to be avoided at all cost. I'm going to try to never finace a car, and hopefuly not a house. I haven't so far, but who knows.

tdelarm

Agreed…I believe the profit margins these manuals produce for the copyright holder to be miniscule in scale to their current projects and interest. Based on their sparse response and lack of concern displayed after recent notification by others and myself that manuals purchased from Mark Shackelford were Xerox copied, I’d venture to say the only ones that are really concerned are us…Quite honestly, it probably wouldn’t behoove them to dump any dollar amount into lawyer fees to go after what…someone making fake copies of an old manual for a few people that may be willing to buy them. And I’m talking numbers like “a few” and not 10 or twenty. But let's remember this thread was about putting the manuals onto PDF format for personal use which I'm sure no one would give a rat's poop or moreless, the cost of a stamp to mail you a "hey...don't do that" letter.

That’s just my 2 cents talking about common senses in the business world and I might add from personal experience dealing with copyright infringement situations, what’s worth pursuing and that, that is not.

Tim Delarm
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Herr Schnell

Tim,

Just keep in mind if the owner (Porsche?) registered its copyright for the manuals it can collect statutory damages without having to show or prove actual damages, as well as attorney's fees. The statutory damages run from $750-$30,000 per work, but willful (knowing) infringement can increase that to $150,000. No "sale" is necessary -- even "loaning," "borrowing," or free "distribution" would still be infringement.

That could make it worth some attorneys time to pursue. That said, the risk really isn't with the end user purchasers of the materials, it is with the distributor.

(Note: I am an intellectual property attorney. And while all of the info above is true, I hate to see the manuals cost as much as they do. I'm about to buy a 928S and the cost is ridiculous.)

Drewster67

Herr -

From what I gather, Porsche only needs "speculation" to file a suit?. Without factual evidence?. I'm not an attorney or a judge but common sense tells me that no court will pursue legal action on "he said, she said" alligations.

I compare that to - a law officer giving you a ticket for "thinking" about running a red light. If someone wants to configure an application for personal use, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Aren't copyright laws made to stop grunts from making a profit on someone elses work, like those bootleg CD's you see at swap meets?.

Even if what Jim compiled, falls into copyright infringment, do you think Porsche will pursue action against him or anyone else associated?.

For Pete's sake, Porsche is a Fortune 500 company that makes MILLIONS of dollars. Do you also think think that they will even care about manuals that are close to two decades old?.

In contrast, I think we owners should start a petition requesting the access or right to configure an application such as the one Jim did.

If this is going to be ugly, let's see if we can take action in avoiding an legal woes.

What are your thoughts?.

Herr Schnell

Drew,

Without directly addressing the specifics of Jim's situation (I'm not his lawyer so I'm not giving legal advice!), converting a manual to pdf format on discs may or may not be a technical infringement. But practically, no one pursues people making backups (even if the change in format is technically an infringement). Certain backups are even permitted by statute -- such as backups of music for personal use.

If that is distributed in any way (be it by sale, nonprofit copying or borrowing) then that is a copyright infringement. The owner would need to show some proof that the distribution is ocurring -- and that is often satisfied by having the owner obtain a copy of the infringement for itself.

If I was Porsche's counsel (which I am not) I would definitely pursue third parties infringing our copyrights. The owner expended significant sums to develop the manuals and, like it or not, owns all rights to them. That said, I'm not Porsche's counsel and so I think it is price gouging for a discontinued product line.

Jim could contact them to get a license for his product, but I suspect the cost would still be artifically high as they would demand a large license fee (as they presumably do for the overpriced manuals).

In my view, a petition effort would be worthless. If you had a copyright that made you somewhere between a few thousand and tens of thousands of dollars per year with no effort would you give it away to the public domain?

Drewster67

Dan -

Jim could contact them to get a license for his product, but I suspect the cost would still be artifically high as they would demand a large license fee (as they presumably do for the overpriced manuals).

With that in mine, If Jim so desired, could he get a price for the license and inturn, solicit interested parties to split that cost equally (if reasonable)?. In turn everyone that contributed could recieve a copy of the PDF format manual?.

Again, what are your thoughts?.

John Speake

Well done Jim ! Congratulations........

Have you received the CD I sent you yet ?

tdelarm

Herr,

First, welcome aboard to Rennlist <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> It’s great to see someone with your tenure <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> hop in with practical experience.

I cannot disagree with any of your points and believe we’re on the same page concerning the manuals and Jim’s PDF project, which we know, is for personal use with I’m sure no malice intended. It’s without a doubt true, that Porsche or actually PCNA who may own the copyright, as I personally have not researched that issue, retains all rights to trudge forward in the manner you speak of but in the reality off it all, I highly doubt they would, and probably peer upon this type of chatter with one eye closed if you will.

As you have professional experience in this arena, let me also expand a bit from the professional level to support my previous statements by adding that my prior marriage partner, an accomplished Grammy recording artist would on occasion be handed boot-legged copies of music CD’s for signing and we’d simply ask…”this is interesting…where’d you get this”…laugh, sign it, hand it back and that was that. More often then not, it was a college student stamping out 50 disks or less and it proved cheaper to…for a lack of better words…”shine it on”…then it would to proceed with legal action. If it had been an organized operation as I’ve seen on several occasions in downtown Los Angeles where they were pumping out boot-legged items by the thousands, then of course we would call for legal approach but on a small scale it simply proved too costly and time consuming.

Of course, all corporations will handle this type of activity accordingly to their needs but as Drew mentioned, Porsche is of stature that I’d doubt would pursue this small-scale type activity. Of course, I’ve been wrong before.

Regarding the manuals, its kind of funny in a way as the 928 enthusiasts continues to get price gouged. Maybe both the music industry and this copyright holder will wake up one day, until then… <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Tim Delarm
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

tdelarm

John,

I believe I also put in an order for that item from you last night. After I receive it, I'll post any comments I may have. Look forward to receiving it.

Thanks

Tim
<img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

Herr Schnell

Tim,

Thanks for the welcome. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

You're right. If the use is personal and used by people who own the manual, then I'd be surprised if Porsche pursued it. Of course the problem with an honor system like that is that people without the manuals could just get the CD without buying the manuals.

Anyway, I am transitioning from the world of Alfa Romeos to a Porsche (can see details on my "928 pricing opinions" thread). The reason I mention it is that Alfa's have "CarDiscs" which are this great resource that has all of the owner and service manuals as well as cool extras like sales brochures, car reviews, photos, etc. on a CD-ROM for a particular model over a range of years. That has been a nice resource to have -- and looking at that might even give Jim some more ideas!

Of course the Alfa CD's are $70 or so, so the Porsche manual prices make me go <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> !