Which ethylene glycol coolant is best?
03-19-2002, 12:31 PM
#16
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I have been watching the coolant discussion with interest because my 928S4 is due for a good flushing and refill. Summer in Houston can be brutal, so I want to do everything possible to keep the car cool.
The recommended Autobahn, MB, and Zerox coolants are hard to find, even in a major city like Houston. I've done some research on phosphate-free coolants and would be interested in feedback on the alternatives that I've found.
1. Prestone Extended Life 5/150
2. SynLube Coolant <a href="http://www.synlube.com/prod05.htm" target="_blank">http://www.synlube.com/prod05.htm</a>
3. Engine Ice coolant - made for motorcycles, but can be used in cars. <a href="http://www.cyclelogic.cc/products.html" target="_blank">http://www.cyclelogic.cc/products.html</a>
They appear to meet the standards of the factory recommended coolants. If they are functionally the same ingredients with the same, or better, cooling and protection capabilities...are they safe to use?
The recommended Autobahn, MB, and Zerox coolants are hard to find, even in a major city like Houston. I've done some research on phosphate-free coolants and would be interested in feedback on the alternatives that I've found.
1. Prestone Extended Life 5/150
2. SynLube Coolant <a href="http://www.synlube.com/prod05.htm" target="_blank">http://www.synlube.com/prod05.htm</a>
3. Engine Ice coolant - made for motorcycles, but can be used in cars. <a href="http://www.cyclelogic.cc/products.html" target="_blank">http://www.cyclelogic.cc/products.html</a>
They appear to meet the standards of the factory recommended coolants. If they are functionally the same ingredients with the same, or better, cooling and protection capabilities...are they safe to use?
03-24-2002, 10:23 AM
#17
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mike,
Read the ingredients label, just because it says its aluminum safe doesn’t mean it is. Not only must it be phosphate free but also propylene glycol free. Flush the cooling system in your car before adding new anti freeze, use only distilled water when mixing. Ask your local parts store if they can order zerex. If not go with what you feel most comfortable with. Always order a extra gallon, this way if you need to top off your system you will be able to add the same type of anti freeze to it. Check your cooling fans make sure both are working. You’re a/c fan should come on when you’re a/c is on. I would change the temperature sensor on the radiator with a new one. Change the thermostat and most importantly change the rear seal behind the thermostat. This seal separates the two systems, the hot water in the engine from the cooler water in the radiator. If it leaks all you would be doing is circulating hot coolant.
Good luck
Steve C
The Great White
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Read the ingredients label, just because it says its aluminum safe doesn’t mean it is. Not only must it be phosphate free but also propylene glycol free. Flush the cooling system in your car before adding new anti freeze, use only distilled water when mixing. Ask your local parts store if they can order zerex. If not go with what you feel most comfortable with. Always order a extra gallon, this way if you need to top off your system you will be able to add the same type of anti freeze to it. Check your cooling fans make sure both are working. You’re a/c fan should come on when you’re a/c is on. I would change the temperature sensor on the radiator with a new one. Change the thermostat and most importantly change the rear seal behind the thermostat. This seal separates the two systems, the hot water in the engine from the cooler water in the radiator. If it leaks all you would be doing is circulating hot coolant.
Good luck
Steve C
The Great White
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03-24-2002, 04:03 PM
#18
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Steve-
What do you know about propylene glycol based coolants?
-I've been running Prestone Lo-Tox [PG based] in my '85 S2 for about 3 years now, and haven't noticed any problems. The car runs a tad on the cool side even, though that might have to do with a 70/30 distilled water/Lo Tox mixture.
Right after I bought the car, the plastic reservoir sprung a leak so I bought a new one and replaced it and the coolant at the same time. I discovered a layer of grey scale on the bottom of the old tank, and the coolant was strangely "milky". This time, when I changed the coolant it came out quite clear and the tank was clean.
By using PG based coolant, I hope I haven't hurt anything. It certainly doesn't appear so, but what do you know?
Normy
What do you know about propylene glycol based coolants?
-I've been running Prestone Lo-Tox [PG based] in my '85 S2 for about 3 years now, and haven't noticed any problems. The car runs a tad on the cool side even, though that might have to do with a 70/30 distilled water/Lo Tox mixture.
Right after I bought the car, the plastic reservoir sprung a leak so I bought a new one and replaced it and the coolant at the same time. I discovered a layer of grey scale on the bottom of the old tank, and the coolant was strangely "milky". This time, when I changed the coolant it came out quite clear and the tank was clean.
By using PG based coolant, I hope I haven't hurt anything. It certainly doesn't appear so, but what do you know?
Normy
03-24-2002, 10:16 PM
#19
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Normy,
I only know it’s not recommended for aluminum engines, MB, BMW, VW, AUDI, SAAB, and all water cooled Porsche. I read it loses its stability with age, and causes corrosion. I will only use what is recommended; I guess it’s my automotive back ground. It’s cheap insurance $10 a gallon.
Subject: Corrosion in the Cooling System
Model
All Water
Cooled
Group
1
Part Identifier
19--
Number
8629
Dec. 16, 1986
Corrosion could occur in the coolant pipes or cooling system as a result of:
- long down-time or storage of the vehicles.
- a coolant and antifreeze mixture which is older than 2 years.
- an antifreeze concentration of less than 30%.
- dirt in the cooling system (corrosion dirt).
Porsche recommends phosphate-free coolant, which has additives to prevent corrosion in the cooling system in addition to the glycol. Some of these additives, however, do not have sufficient aging stability.
Oxygen:
Glycol reacts with oxygen to form acid. Oxygen enters the cooling system via the seals. Cold coolant takes on more oxygen than warm coolant.
This results in:
- a lower content of glycol in the coolant and
- the antifreeze safety temperature rising in direction of 0~C (32~F).
Reserve Alkalinity:
This is defined as the alkaline additives which bind (neutralize) the produced acids. The acid volume increases when these additives are used up. The coolant then becomes more aggressive, resulting in accelerated corrosion.
Corrosion Dirt:
The corrosion dirt circulated in the coolant circuit will rub freshly protective coats off the inside of the cooling system components. The protective coat must then be built up from new, resulting in faster consumption of these protective additives (e.g. silicate for aluminum).
Antifreeze Content:
It should be at least 30% and not more than 55% (check manufacturer's recommendations).
Content less than 30%:
- the corrosion inhibitors cannot produce a complete protective coat which will result in local corrosion.
Content more than 55%:
- the heat conductivity of the coolant is lower, therefore, higher coolant temperature results.
- corrosion inhibition is impaired since the inhibitors are only effective with a sufficient water content.
Note the following (points) in case of opened cans or containers of antifreeze:
1. The cans or containers must be closed (caps, covers) after using.
2. The date of the initial opening should be noted on the cans or containers.
3. The remaining antifreeze must be used up within six to nine months.
Good luck
Steve C
The Great White
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I only know it’s not recommended for aluminum engines, MB, BMW, VW, AUDI, SAAB, and all water cooled Porsche. I read it loses its stability with age, and causes corrosion. I will only use what is recommended; I guess it’s my automotive back ground. It’s cheap insurance $10 a gallon.
Subject: Corrosion in the Cooling System
Model
All Water
Cooled
Group
1
Part Identifier
19--
Number
8629
Dec. 16, 1986
Corrosion could occur in the coolant pipes or cooling system as a result of:
- long down-time or storage of the vehicles.
- a coolant and antifreeze mixture which is older than 2 years.
- an antifreeze concentration of less than 30%.
- dirt in the cooling system (corrosion dirt).
Porsche recommends phosphate-free coolant, which has additives to prevent corrosion in the cooling system in addition to the glycol. Some of these additives, however, do not have sufficient aging stability.
Oxygen:
Glycol reacts with oxygen to form acid. Oxygen enters the cooling system via the seals. Cold coolant takes on more oxygen than warm coolant.
This results in:
- a lower content of glycol in the coolant and
- the antifreeze safety temperature rising in direction of 0~C (32~F).
Reserve Alkalinity:
This is defined as the alkaline additives which bind (neutralize) the produced acids. The acid volume increases when these additives are used up. The coolant then becomes more aggressive, resulting in accelerated corrosion.
Corrosion Dirt:
The corrosion dirt circulated in the coolant circuit will rub freshly protective coats off the inside of the cooling system components. The protective coat must then be built up from new, resulting in faster consumption of these protective additives (e.g. silicate for aluminum).
Antifreeze Content:
It should be at least 30% and not more than 55% (check manufacturer's recommendations).
Content less than 30%:
- the corrosion inhibitors cannot produce a complete protective coat which will result in local corrosion.
Content more than 55%:
- the heat conductivity of the coolant is lower, therefore, higher coolant temperature results.
- corrosion inhibition is impaired since the inhibitors are only effective with a sufficient water content.
Note the following (points) in case of opened cans or containers of antifreeze:
1. The cans or containers must be closed (caps, covers) after using.
2. The date of the initial opening should be noted on the cans or containers.
3. The remaining antifreeze must be used up within six to nine months.
Good luck
Steve C
The Great White
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03-25-2002, 06:25 PM
#21
Water Wetter is about a 12 ounce bottle of pink stuff that's added to the cooling system. What it does is to lower the surface tension of the water/coolant mixture. With a lower surface tension, the small bubbles that are formed as the coolant removes heat from the engine are reduced in size, giving a greater contact area between the coolant and engine surfaces. This allows for better, more efficient cooling. Water Wetter is available from some local auto parts places. I got mine from Pep Boys.
03-25-2002, 06:40 PM
#22
I noticed that the Porsche service bulletin mentioned above that lists recommended coolants is dated September 4, 1987. Was the Dex-cool stuff even around back then to be specificly included or excluded from the bulletin?
03-25-2002, 07:42 PM
#23
The propylene glycol non-use is disappointing. It seems that the former company "Mecca', which is now <a href="http://www.evanscooling.com" target="_blank">www.evanscooling.com</a> sells a "special" non-water propylene glycol coolant that is supposed to be the wonder-drug for cars that may ned extra cooling because of combustion tempatures. I was all excited about it until this thread.
Its surface tension is very good as well.
This is also disappointing, as certain tracks across the country do not allow ethylene glycol on the the track. Propelyne is just fine.
After reading the page, I see that they "say" that the propelyne glycol is non-corrosive, and contains quite of bit of corrosion inhibiting materials. If you were to (correctly) fill, clean, and drain each year, as you are really supposed to, I am unsure if this product woul dbe such a bad thing.
Comment and answers welcome,
Thanks,
Its surface tension is very good as well.
This is also disappointing, as certain tracks across the country do not allow ethylene glycol on the the track. Propelyne is just fine.
After reading the page, I see that they "say" that the propelyne glycol is non-corrosive, and contains quite of bit of corrosion inhibiting materials. If you were to (correctly) fill, clean, and drain each year, as you are really supposed to, I am unsure if this product woul dbe such a bad thing.
Comment and answers welcome,
Thanks,
03-25-2002, 08:18 PM
#24
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Mike,
The service bulletin that recommended coolants is dated 1994, I think dex –cool was introduce in 1995
Cooling System - Approved Phosphate Free Anti-Freeze
Group
1
Model
4 Cyl. & 8 Cyl.
Part Identifier
1901
Number
9408
August 30, 1994
Subject:
Approved Anti-Freeze1
Steve C
The Great White
The service bulletin that recommended coolants is dated 1994, I think dex –cool was introduce in 1995
Cooling System - Approved Phosphate Free Anti-Freeze
Group
1
Model
4 Cyl. & 8 Cyl.
Part Identifier
1901
Number
9408
August 30, 1994
Subject:
Approved Anti-Freeze1
Steve C
The Great White
03-28-2002, 05:01 PM
#26
Okay - as per an email from Evanscooling,:
[quote]
Thank you for your interest in Evans. Evans is a waterless coolant. The
problem with PG based coolants is the corrosion inhibitor package for the
water in conventional PG based coolants. Because Evans is waterless our
inhibitor package does not corrode aluminum.
<hr></blockquote>
I understand what he is saying, and I tend to believe it. I would like more info though. I have emailed him back to ask what changes I must make to run this coolant.
[quote]
Thank you for your interest in Evans. Evans is a waterless coolant. The
problem with PG based coolants is the corrosion inhibitor package for the
water in conventional PG based coolants. Because Evans is waterless our
inhibitor package does not corrode aluminum.
<hr></blockquote>
I understand what he is saying, and I tend to believe it. I would like more info though. I have emailed him back to ask what changes I must make to run this coolant.
03-28-2002, 05:59 PM
#27
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Brendan!
-Sorry, I haven't looked at this thread in a while, but I've had a negative experience with Mecca/Evans Cooling!
I had a rare, factory turbo VW Scirocco which was having trouble staying cool. In 1992, I converted the cooling system to Mecca/Evans, which was 100% PG based, and had the added benefit of using a zero-pressure reservoir cap. This means that the system was vented to the atmosphere- no pressure,which was great for all the hoses. This normaly would result in ridiculous nucleate boiling and loss of fluid from evaporation, but Evans solved these problems by additives and formulation that inhibited both to a huge degree. IN THEORY this was an ideal solution. They even talked European Car magazine into doing a big story on them.
The problem was, it didn't work. Despite having it professionally installed, the car quickly overheated in traffic- I can still see the needle pegging and watching the red overheat diode flashing. I could tell it was hot from all the knocking and pinging too.
You see, PG does not have anywhere near the heat carrying capacity that water does, which means that it could not pick up much heat and could not deliver it to the radiator.
Me and my mechanic followed the directions carefully- and when I called Evans, they replied "well, this system needs greater coolant flow. A special hi-flow water pump and a radiator with larger and fewer tubes are needed for the system to run right. These are not currently available for your car, sorry." And that was that. I removed the coolant, flushed the hell out of the system, and refilled it with regular Prestone. Not cool~
I DO NOT recommend anyone convert their car to this system as a result. I use Prestone Lo-Tox for toxicity reasons, a 70/30 mix with a bottle of watter wetter, and change it out after two years. I've noticed clean running and a cool engine.
-If anyone has had better results with Mecca, I'd like to hear them. I hate to badmouth them, but their product did not work for me and they were not much help afterwards.
Normy~
-Sorry, I haven't looked at this thread in a while, but I've had a negative experience with Mecca/Evans Cooling!
I had a rare, factory turbo VW Scirocco which was having trouble staying cool. In 1992, I converted the cooling system to Mecca/Evans, which was 100% PG based, and had the added benefit of using a zero-pressure reservoir cap. This means that the system was vented to the atmosphere- no pressure,which was great for all the hoses. This normaly would result in ridiculous nucleate boiling and loss of fluid from evaporation, but Evans solved these problems by additives and formulation that inhibited both to a huge degree. IN THEORY this was an ideal solution. They even talked European Car magazine into doing a big story on them.
The problem was, it didn't work. Despite having it professionally installed, the car quickly overheated in traffic- I can still see the needle pegging and watching the red overheat diode flashing. I could tell it was hot from all the knocking and pinging too.
You see, PG does not have anywhere near the heat carrying capacity that water does, which means that it could not pick up much heat and could not deliver it to the radiator.
Me and my mechanic followed the directions carefully- and when I called Evans, they replied "well, this system needs greater coolant flow. A special hi-flow water pump and a radiator with larger and fewer tubes are needed for the system to run right. These are not currently available for your car, sorry." And that was that. I removed the coolant, flushed the hell out of the system, and refilled it with regular Prestone. Not cool~
I DO NOT recommend anyone convert their car to this system as a result. I use Prestone Lo-Tox for toxicity reasons, a 70/30 mix with a bottle of watter wetter, and change it out after two years. I've noticed clean running and a cool engine.
-If anyone has had better results with Mecca, I'd like to hear them. I hate to badmouth them, but their product did not work for me and they were not much help afterwards.
Normy~
03-28-2002, 07:39 PM
#28
Say No more Normy. I totally understand now. I was looking at the surface tension numbers on thier page, and I was wondering why water was still miles (high or low - I forgot) away from coolant, or PG. I understand that they always mention the pump and rad need, and infact I have emailed them about my car, and the fact that no one, and I mean No One will be making something that I can replace my normal pump with.
With you comment (appreicated), I will not stop dreaming of perfect combustion from perfect cooling with my supercharger plans for the 928. I personally am usuing a ~25% mix of coolant with distilled water and TWO bottles of water wetter. It is an 89, so it seems to run high on my gauge, but it never gets past that last safe line. And that wa sonly when I decided to run the air over the rockies in 95 degree weather. I thought doing 100mph would cool things off a bit, and it did
Notice to anybody reading: With certain exceptions (heresay), personal experiences with ANY product or person are always appreciated, as long is it is somewhat respectful. John D> Just B*tchslapped some guy about a personal attack on the company "racer's edge" or something, but that specific email was a bit over the top. MOst other info is usually appreciated, if not allowed.
With you comment (appreicated), I will not stop dreaming of perfect combustion from perfect cooling with my supercharger plans for the 928. I personally am usuing a ~25% mix of coolant with distilled water and TWO bottles of water wetter. It is an 89, so it seems to run high on my gauge, but it never gets past that last safe line. And that wa sonly when I decided to run the air over the rockies in 95 degree weather. I thought doing 100mph would cool things off a bit, and it did
Notice to anybody reading: With certain exceptions (heresay), personal experiences with ANY product or person are always appreciated, as long is it is somewhat respectful. John D> Just B*tchslapped some guy about a personal attack on the company "racer's edge" or something, but that specific email was a bit over the top. MOst other info is usually appreciated, if not allowed.
