GT Jackson

Hey Bernie, I'm way over my head here but if you are in need of engine bay space . . .

Why do we have those damn air intake tubes running all the way from the front end back to the filter box? I see on the Jacquamond site a really sharp hood with with left and right air intakes just in front of the windshield cowl.

Is this a good or bad location for air induction? High or low pressure. FWIW

Gordon

Dozman

The air intake from the cowl might be a bad idea due to rain or water getting into the air supply.

Bernie

Hey Gordon,

Those tubes go away for the blower install. There is a single tube that I will run from the blower exit up to the MAF.
I "am" however interested in different techniques for feeding fresh air to the blower.

I need more info on fans though.
I did see the Socal928 post but from the looks of it, it will still take up to much space. There are a lot of low-profile fans out there but I would still like to get some sort of shroud around the setup.

Thanx

Randy Page

Bernie,

First off, I posted a couple of picture I just took of my engine. They are not great, but you can see most of the key items.<a href="http://www.terraxsite.com/928" target="_blank">Pictures</a>

Sounds like you have the injectors/regulator taken care of. For the FMU, which I highly recommend, you can get one from Vortech for $140. Basically, it raises fuel pressure by a set ratio based on boost. So, if it's set to 8:1, you get an extra 8 psi FP for each 1 PSI boost. In my photos it's the blue disk at the back of the engine.

For the fans, I am running two pullers (12" and 10") on the engine side of the radiator, and a single 12" pusher on the front of the radiator. I hooked them all up to the stock power sources so they are controlled just like the original fans. I just added the 10" puller this summer, and it made a big difference. It's gets pretty hot here in NC, and I found myself in a bank drive-through in August for about 20 minutes. The temp needle never hit the last white line. I personally don't think the pusher does much good.

Some other items you will need other than the basics (blower, bracket, pulleys, etc.) that come to mind are:
-Fans
-Plumbing for the blower to intake run.
-Air intake system. I have changed mine a number of times. You can start out simple and just slap on a K&N cone filter at the opening of the blower just to get things going. Later you will want to get some cool air. I ended up running a hose to below the headlight and placing the filter there.
-Oil supply/oil return. I am using an adapter that fits between the oil filter and the engine for the supply, and am dumping the return into the base of the dipstick. Not the best setup, but I am having no problems with it.
-Vacuum hoses/plugs. There are lots of places where the crankcase vents into the intake. You have to catch all of these and plug, re-route, or add check valves. You should also consider a catch-can to capture any oil that might blow out of the cam covers...this is even a problem for NA 928 motors. (you can see mine near the PS reservoir.)
-Lot's of patience, especially if you are piecing this together without a kit. Be prepaired for some down time, and several months (at least) of trouble shooting. I'm at year two, and am still tweaking things...but I am kind slow..... But, I did drive the car to SITM (about 4 hours one way) about a week after the initial install....made it there and back!

Any more questions, just ask.

Randy

87 S4 Auto Black/Black
Supercharged & Intercooled

Bernie

Randy,

Your car looks awesome.
Man, now I'm inspired to tear off anything I can get my hands on to clean and buff.

Your blower install looks very nicely done as well. Whats that rod that extends from the blower assembly to the intake area?

I need to sit back and drool over the pics for awhile before I drum up more questions.

Thanx for keeping with this thread

Cheers
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

P928sfan

Maybe I am missing something here, but all the pics and articles are NOT about the 85 US motors. The intakes shown in all pics are the later model (narrower) ones. As another 85 auto owner, I am also interested, and curious how the routing could be done with the wider intakes of the 85/86's.

Kevin

GoRideSno

Kevin,
It would look like the car in this
<a href="http://www.f-a-s-tonline.com/fast928main.htm" target="_blank">link.</a>
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Andy K

Bernie

Hey Kevin,

Thanx for keeping the thread in line but Randy is offering some valuable info on fuel management and cooling. The S3 and S4 will be handled pretty much the same with regards to these topics. Our cars have certain special circumstances as you stated. Plumbing will be a little different because of the restricted space. I think Vortech produces a blower that spits out to the drivers side as opposed to the passenger side. This will help with some of the space issues. On the driver side we will only encounter the brake fluid reservoir as an obstacle.
We also have to deal with a pretty goofy throttle linkage arrangement. I am working out the details of that problem with a friend of mine.
I don't think the plumbing has to be as large in diameter as some I have seen. The outlet of the blower looks smaller then some of the plumbing jobs and since I am after a 4-5 psi setup, I think i could personally go with smaller tubing. I would love to have a 1 piece mandrel bent tube to take me right from the blower to the intake so I will look into that.
Having said all of that, I appreciate all of Randy's input.
We need to keep track of all of these things and pick the best of everyones work.
Their experience with these installations can only make our job that much easier.

Cheers

Koenig928

Bernie,

I'm sure you've heard this before, but do take serious consideration for dissapating the heat that your motor will create when it is supercharged.

One of the largest issues I've had to deal with on my Koenig is trying to get rid of the massive amounts of heat the engine creates. One of the things I did was to install an external oil cooler, routing the circuit out of the radiator and into the wheel well, which made a huge difference.

The charger setup on my car is a bit different than the current installations out there, but the operating principles are very similar. If the car is run in a relatively cool/cold climate, you probably wont have much problem with heat. (As the Koenig was designed to run in Germany, it did quite well over there. But the motor did not like it when it came to Florida in the summertime)

The supercharger itself will generate a massive amount of heat in the intake charge. I literally cannot touch the intake tube on my car after running it for a while. An intercooler would help here. The heat will also transfer to the engine oil and coolant, consider an external oil cooler and/or larger radiator.

I am not an expert on supercharging, just wanted to share with you my experiences/problems with my supercharged 928.

Good luck with your project.

Bernie

Hi Bill,

First of all, welcome to Rennlist!!!!
We're glad to add your knowledge to the board and to this particular topic.

Yes, cooling is my main concern right now. The 928 runs warm as it is and I want to make sure I don't put any further stress on the already hot engine. I think the external coolers are a great idea however, I will not be adding an intercooler at this point in time. I don't think it will be required for the moderate amount of boost I am after. Maybe in the future I will expand the system to include the intercooler but I figure I already have my work cut out for me now.

An oil cooler was already on the list prior to the supercharging idea so I guess that will remain. I also want to devise a plan to get fresh air into the blower and I think I will do that with a small scoop on the front of the hood. Don't freak!!! I am going to buy another hood to do this and keep my original hood in tack and in storage for future considerations.

Thanx much for the added input.
Hope things are well in Vegas, I do get up there quite a bit but my car does not like the strip temps very much....


Cheers

BC

The vortech systems for the integra/honda products are interesting in reference to what I want to do...

They actually drive a pully which then in turn drives a shaft that extends the mounting of the comressor to the OPPOSITE end of the engine, as in opposite the accessory drive side. In the cas of our cars, this would make the run from the compressor to the intake MUCH shorter, and you can run big puller fans then too. The only issue I see is that you would have to get creative with where to put an intercooler.

The vortech site has pics, but they do not show what I am talking about very well.

BC

Also, while I am here, there is another thing I want to share.

A blow off valve is obivously needed. But there do exist valves that can also be used as a "waste gate", in that they will cut the boost at say 10psi, and flow the rest out into the air. Now, I will be using a MAP EFI system, so I do not have to worry about metered air being vented, but you MAF people will.

It is wasteful of power, but hey, if you want boost NOW instead of at 4k, then you drive the blower to like 18psi at 6500, and have 4psi at 2k, and have it cut and hold te boost at 10 from 4-7k.

Pretty cool.

Koenig928

Hi Bernie,

Actually, I hood scoop is a very good idea. I plan on doing the same thing here once temps start to get hot again. But I plan on probably cutting a slit/slot in the hood to allow cooler air to the charger intakes. Yes, I know some people cringe at the idea of cutting their hood, but there's purpose behind it, and you can make it look very good. There are a few pictures out there of 928s with modified hoods.

Didnt mean to imply that you must do an oil cooler or intercooler or something, its just simply something to consider. It all depends where and how you drive the car.

I only did an oil cooler on mine (with a DEVEK radiator at the previous owners expense), but no i.c.. Your car 'might' run fine without any cooling mods at all... then again it all depends. Before the Koenig came over to the states here, it ran in Germany with no external oil cooler, the stock 928 radiator, and no intercooler. Then again, it is much cooler over there also.

deltaP

A couple of points:

The S4 electric fan replacements can hook into existing wiring as was mentioned. Bernie's '85 does not have this luxury, so an aftermarket controller must be found or a stock S4 must be adapted.

There already is an external oil cooler integral to the 928 which cools through the radiator. It is thermostatically controlled. Any additional coolers should be thermostatically controlled and over cooling the oil will reduce engine life as well as overheated oil.

deltaP

Oh, also, the s trim Vortech blower has an outlet diameter of 2.375". this puts air velocity at 6000 RPM and assuming 100% vol eff. at 286 in/sec. A rule of thumb is to keep velocities below 440 in/sec to avoid substantial friction losses. The smaller tube also affords less squish area which adds to the centrifigual pumps delay.

I think you will do fine with the smaller tube.