mark kibort

Here is a correction to the post regarding Pagid racing pads. there is a difference of "black" for the street or racing!

From the same stoptech site,
" Pagid RS 14 (Black) is a full race pad with a medium-to-high friction level. It is a ceramic-type compound with very good modulation, high fade resistance, low heat conductivity, and a good wear rate up to a temperature 1,200°F. Applications include NASCAR, CART, F3, Touring cars, GT cars, WSC, Trans Am and Rally. "

mk

worf928

It is - according to the description - and supports the point I was making: There are 'dual-use' pads that provide better track performance than stock without too much compromise on the street. However, all bets are off on dust and rotor wear.

The PF and Hawk dual-use pads I have used in the past were both horrible dusters and very aggressive on the rotors.

Edit: Note that I'm not advocating the dual-use pads for any context other than light DE use on street tires.

mark kibort

Good, i agree. I certainly think if i was using my 928 more for street than i do, the "street" pagid blacks, would be a good pad package. stock street pads are completely useless on the track, but pads like mintex racing and these street pagid's could be a good dual purpose alternative.

Mk

hacker-pschorr

No kidding - how do you know your brake lines need replacement? WHEN THEY BLOW!!!

Why wait that long?

James-man

What Jim says.

I have a track history of brake boilage. ATE Superblue may not be enough for a track with heavy braking + stock S4 wheels (which do not afford very good brake ventilation). Thicker pads can help make a difference.

As others mentioned, step 1 is to upgrade your fluid.

James-man

My first several DE events were on Textars. They worked well and my "home" track is brutal on brakes. For those that are new or casual, occasional track participants (1 or two DEs a year), you CAN use good street pads (choose carefully - I can only comment positively on Textars. Do NOT use the cheap Mintex street pads). If using street pads, just don't plan on "finishing them up" at the track. They need to be more than 1/2 full thickness or you are opening yourself up to greater overheating/fade/boling issues.

Just some counter-perspective for those that have not come down with acute track day disease.

largecar379

A great conversation about braking systems to which I will add this:

I recently converted my 1980 Euro's brakes to S4 big blacks (cleaned and painted red---looks great, inside my 19's!).

I have additionally replaced all hydraulic system components (clutch and brake cylinders) including stainless steel lines, pads, rotors, etc., too.

ONE HUGE MISCALCULATION-----

I did not put Locktite on and properly torque (65lbs per FWM) the caliper attaching bolts. (I only hand tightened the bolts---which was pretty damn tight, just not tight enough.)

After a few weeks of driving, I backed out of the driveway one AM and the right front caliper came completely off the suspension, separating the brake line and pouring the blue stuff all over the street/car. (Glad I had a good E-brake!!!!) The caliper bolts had loosened and backed completely off. After checking the other 3 wheel-ends, guess what? They too, were all backed off to nothing more than finger tight!!! OH, CRAP!

THIS COULD HAVE BEEN VERY, VERY, BAD-----

So, if you're changing your rotors, calipers, or anything else related to your braking system (no matter how often or for what ever reason), MAKE DAMN SURE YOU Locktite the bolts and TORQUE THEM TO SPECS!!!!!!

regards---rhj

GUMBALL

Here are some brake fluids and their respective boiling points:


boiling point................. DRY / WET

Ford Heavy Duty DOT 3...550 / 290
ATE Super Blue Racing....536 / 392
ATE TYP 200...................536 / 392
Motul Racing 600............585 / 421
Castrol SRF....................590 / 518
Performance Friction.......550 / 284
AP 551...........................527 / 302
AP 600...........................590 / 410

glork98

Do you have the specs for the DOT ratings? (DOT3, DOT4, DOT5.1)

Also, the correct goop for brake calipers in antiseize. The torque is high and hard to do inside the wheel wells.

Perhaps some loctitie is needed for the adapters but the manual calls for anitseize on the caliper-to-knuckle bolts.

Charley B

What does dry vs. wet mean, regarding brake fluid boiling points?

Ed Hughes

When fluid gets old or exposed to the air, it picks up moisture due to it being hygroscopic. This dramatically lowers the boiling point, and is what is referred to as "wet". This is a relative term, because I think it only takes 3 or 4% moisture content to ruin brake fluid.

As a comment on the chart above, I think the Motul is the best bang for the buck, but is probably overkill for street use. I use it in my 911, but I use ATE in my 928.

SwayBar

According to the shop manual, Section 46, page 46 - 08, the prescribed torque for the caliper bolts are 62 ft lbs, but no mention of applying Loctite.

Section 46, page 46 - 12, instruction #3 specifies 62 ft lbs of torque for the 'caliper retaining bolts', and again, no mention of Loctite.

If you torque 'em to 62 ft lbs, you'll be good-to-go without using Loctite, and that's according to the engineers at Porsche.

Good thing your problem surfaced while backing out of the driveway!

worf928

Maybe so, but as a general rule if it has a torque spec and I can get a torque wrench anywhere near it I torque it to spec. Especially, brakes are not one of the things I cut corners on.

For torquing the calipers I made myself a special tool. I took a 1/2-drive socket and JB-welded in a very short length of cut off allen wrench. It's much shorter and stronger than the typical 3/8-drive allen socket. With this it's easy to correctly torque the caliper bolts.

largecar379

swaybar's right about no mention of Locktite in the FWM, but after my un-nerving experience, I thought it was the "prudent thing to do".

Nothing wrong with a little extra "insurance" when it comes to brakes......

having something come apart in the driveway is plenty bad enough, but I sometimes do DE @ TWS, and losing a caliper while coming to the end of the main straightaway at over 100 mph would not be a good thing at all!!!!

I had no problem reaching all of the (front) caliper bolts with no special tools other than your readily available 10mm Allen head 3/8 drive socket from Craftsman (Sears) connected to my torque wrench. As for the rear bolts, no problem there either just using a 19mm socket.

Just trying to give ya'll a "heads up", so to speak....

regards----rhj

Vlocity

Has anyone used the titanium inserts between the pad and caliper in order to help reduce heat transfer into the caliper?

Just curious....

Ken