Is a 5.0 Litre Euro top end faster than a 4.7L euro S2
04-08-2007, 04:03 PM
#1
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Is a 5.0 Litre Euro top end faster than a 4.7L euro S2
IMO and In Short Yes!
Rich9928p and myself both had our sharks running with NASA/Club Racing Arizona event at FIR main track. DE4
Richs shark is 5.0 bottom end with a Euro top end and CIS - 5 spd
He runs an accusump/full cage and two seats MSDSA headers with 3' in/out exhaust - two chamber flowmaster LSD
I run a stock 4.7L S2 4 spd automatic w/MSDS headers w/straight pipes that merge into a 3" in/out exhaust with two chamber flowmaster. No roll cage or accusump and one seat. NON LSD
In short - the 5 spd 5.0l definitely pulls better on the straights.
If your making a decison between a Euro 4.7l and a hybrid 5.0l - GO with the 5.0L hybrid!
Of course Im keeping the axle diff ratio out of this equation - dunno if it would really matter anyway?
Rich9928p and myself both had our sharks running with NASA/Club Racing Arizona event at FIR main track. DE4
Richs shark is 5.0 bottom end with a Euro top end and CIS - 5 spd
He runs an accusump/full cage and two seats MSDSA headers with 3' in/out exhaust - two chamber flowmaster LSD
I run a stock 4.7L S2 4 spd automatic w/MSDS headers w/straight pipes that merge into a 3" in/out exhaust with two chamber flowmaster. No roll cage or accusump and one seat. NON LSD
In short - the 5 spd 5.0l definitely pulls better on the straights.
If your making a decison between a Euro 4.7l and a hybrid 5.0l - GO with the 5.0L hybrid!
Of course Im keeping the axle diff ratio out of this equation - dunno if it would really matter anyway?
04-08-2007, 04:08 PM
#2
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Maybe. Displacement vs compression. Real transmission vs slushbox. The 5.0 will probably have more power than your 4.7 just because it is freshly rebuilt.
04-08-2007, 04:13 PM
#3
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
The second gear launch out turn 12 - showed how much grunt his 5spd had over the slushbox - I have a feeling a 5 spd S2 would do a little better but how much that has Yet to be determined.
04-08-2007, 07:45 PM
#4
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[QUOTE=
Of course Im keeping the axle diff ratio out of this equation - dunno if it would really matter anyway?[/QUOTE]
Hi
You cannot keep the diff out of it if you are talking top speed...
As an example.....my diff on my S2 auto is in THEORY capable of 235 mph (I wish lol)
The 5 ltr standard diff on the manual is capable of around 186 mph in Theory...
Diffs are swings and roundabouts......high top speed OR faster acceleration....but NOT both...
All the best Brett
PORSCHE 928 S2 AUTO V8 4.7 LTR 1986 IRIS METALLIC BLUE WITH X-PIPES ,RMB ,PROMAX CHIPS, KICKDOWN SWITCH, K&N, WIZARDS OF NOS - NITROUS KIT 150 HP JETTING - 505 BHP / 500 FT LBS TORQUE
PCGB UK 928 FORUM MODERATOR - Email managingdirector@pchealthcare.co.uk
Of course Im keeping the axle diff ratio out of this equation - dunno if it would really matter anyway?
[/QUOTE]Hi
You cannot keep the diff out of it if you are talking top speed...
As an example.....my diff on my S2 auto is in THEORY capable of 235 mph (I wish lol)
The 5 ltr standard diff on the manual is capable of around 186 mph in Theory...
Diffs are swings and roundabouts......high top speed OR faster acceleration....but NOT both...
All the best Brett
PORSCHE 928 S2 AUTO V8 4.7 LTR 1986 IRIS METALLIC BLUE WITH X-PIPES ,RMB ,PROMAX CHIPS, KICKDOWN SWITCH, K&N, WIZARDS OF NOS - NITROUS KIT 150 HP JETTING - 505 BHP / 500 FT LBS TORQUE
PCGB UK 928 FORUM MODERATOR - Email managingdirector@pchealthcare.co.uk
04-08-2007, 08:14 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
well, having build Rich's engine and have raced it, i can tell you that all this boils down to HP. again, if you want 5 more pages of how gear ratios effect application of HP lets keep on talking.(notice i didnt say acceleration as we all know now that accleration is directly proportioal to power)
the euro guys with similar headers run near 275rwhp, as JP's was rumored to have. Im sure a real euro with a 5 liter bottom end would push 300rwhp, as i was able to get 293rwhp with a 50% restrictor plate, (ie AFM from the US Ljet)
top speed is not a gear ratio thing,nor is acceleration out of a particular 2nd gear turn. for every advantage a euro transmission has on any particular 2nd gear turn, ill find just as many where the US 2.2 2nd gear will have an equal advantage. usually, the entire speed range is a series of trade offs. so, you can have top speed and acceleration for any comparible set of gears. thats why the GT with the 2.72 and the S4 with 2.2:1 had pretty close to the same top speeds, even though the GT had 15more hp or so. actually , the GT had as much of a higher top speed as it did more HP. (as you know, the hp reqired to go faster goes up with the cube of speed . 5% more hp only buys you the cube root of 5% more speed.
mk
Im just tickeled that Rich is still running my old engine in his car. it was a good motor. I hope Scot has as much luck with his. its almost running now, just one little thing to work out. (temp 2 issue, we think)
MK
the euro guys with similar headers run near 275rwhp, as JP's was rumored to have. Im sure a real euro with a 5 liter bottom end would push 300rwhp, as i was able to get 293rwhp with a 50% restrictor plate, (ie AFM from the US Ljet)
top speed is not a gear ratio thing,nor is acceleration out of a particular 2nd gear turn. for every advantage a euro transmission has on any particular 2nd gear turn, ill find just as many where the US 2.2 2nd gear will have an equal advantage. usually, the entire speed range is a series of trade offs. so, you can have top speed and acceleration for any comparible set of gears. thats why the GT with the 2.72 and the S4 with 2.2:1 had pretty close to the same top speeds, even though the GT had 15more hp or so. actually , the GT had as much of a higher top speed as it did more HP. (as you know, the hp reqired to go faster goes up with the cube of speed . 5% more hp only buys you the cube root of 5% more speed.
mk
Im just tickeled that Rich is still running my old engine in his car. it was a good motor. I hope Scot has as much luck with his. its almost running now, just one little thing to work out. (temp 2 issue, we think)
MK
Originally Posted by BRETT AINLEY
Hi
You cannot keep the diff out of it if you are talking top speed...
As an example.....my diff on my S2 auto is in THEORY capable of 235 mph (I wish lol)
The 5 ltr standard diff on the manual is capable of around 186 mph in Theory...
Diffs are swings and roundabouts......high top speed OR faster acceleration....but NOT both...
All the best Brett
PORSCHE 928 S2 AUTO V8 4.7 LTR 1986 IRIS METALLIC BLUE WITH X-PIPES ,RMB ,PROMAX CHIPS, KICKDOWN SWITCH, K&N, WIZARDS OF NOS - NITROUS KIT 150 HP JETTING - 505 BHP / 500 FT LBS TORQUE
PCGB UK 928 FORUM MODERATOR - Email managingdirector@pchealthcare.co.uk
You cannot keep the diff out of it if you are talking top speed...
As an example.....my diff on my S2 auto is in THEORY capable of 235 mph (I wish lol)
The 5 ltr standard diff on the manual is capable of around 186 mph in Theory...
Diffs are swings and roundabouts......high top speed OR faster acceleration....but NOT both...
All the best Brett
PORSCHE 928 S2 AUTO V8 4.7 LTR 1986 IRIS METALLIC BLUE WITH X-PIPES ,RMB ,PROMAX CHIPS, KICKDOWN SWITCH, K&N, WIZARDS OF NOS - NITROUS KIT 150 HP JETTING - 505 BHP / 500 FT LBS TORQUE
PCGB UK 928 FORUM MODERATOR - Email managingdirector@pchealthcare.co.uk
04-08-2007, 08:21 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Im expecting the same 290ish rwhp with scots 5 liter Ljet. maybe a little more as we have correct offsets for the pistons AND the devek b1 cam. however, we are not able to get the spark advance as i got on my US 84 vs his US 82. something to do with the differences in the distributer. this could be a problem for optimising max hp, but maybe not. we will see.
mk
mk
04-08-2007, 08:47 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by mark kibort
well, having build Rich's engine and have raced it, i can tell you that all this boils down to HP. again, if you want 5 more pages of how gear ratios effect application of HP lets keep on talking.(notice i didnt say acceleration as we all know now that accleration is directly proportioal to power)
the euro guys with similar headers run near 275rwhp, as JP's was rumored to have. Im sure a real euro with a 5 liter bottom end would push 300rwhp, as i was able to get 293rwhp with a 50% restrictor plate, (ie AFM from the US Ljet)
top speed is not a gear ratio thing,nor is acceleration out of a particular 2nd gear turn. for every advantage a euro transmission has on any particular 2nd gear turn, ill find just as many where the US 2.2 2nd gear will have an equal advantage. usually, the entire speed range is a series of trade offs. so, you can have top speed and acceleration for any comparible set of gears. thats why the GT with the 2.72 and the S4 with 2.2:1 had pretty close to the same top speeds, even though the GT had 15more hp or so. actually , the GT had as much of a higher top speed as it did more HP. (as you know, the hp reqired to go faster goes up with the cube of speed . 5% more hp only buys you the cube root of 5% more speed.
mk
Im just tickeled that Rich is still running my old engine in his car. it was a good motor. I hope Scot has as much luck with his. its almost running now, just one little thing to work out. (temp 2 issue, we think)
MK
the euro guys with similar headers run near 275rwhp, as JP's was rumored to have. Im sure a real euro with a 5 liter bottom end would push 300rwhp, as i was able to get 293rwhp with a 50% restrictor plate, (ie AFM from the US Ljet)
top speed is not a gear ratio thing,nor is acceleration out of a particular 2nd gear turn. for every advantage a euro transmission has on any particular 2nd gear turn, ill find just as many where the US 2.2 2nd gear will have an equal advantage. usually, the entire speed range is a series of trade offs. so, you can have top speed and acceleration for any comparible set of gears. thats why the GT with the 2.72 and the S4 with 2.2:1 had pretty close to the same top speeds, even though the GT had 15more hp or so. actually , the GT had as much of a higher top speed as it did more HP. (as you know, the hp reqired to go faster goes up with the cube of speed . 5% more hp only buys you the cube root of 5% more speed.
mk
Im just tickeled that Rich is still running my old engine in his car. it was a good motor. I hope Scot has as much luck with his. its almost running now, just one little thing to work out. (temp 2 issue, we think)
MK
Hi
I thought the thread was about "top end"....now in the UK ...top end means "top speed"...and an S2 Auto with a 2.357 diff WILL have a higher top speed than a 5 ltr manual diff...assuming equal and sufficient hp to reach top speed...as a matter of interest..it also has a much higher reversing speed lol
All the best Brett
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04-08-2007, 09:01 PM
#8
Electron Wrangler
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I think its pretty clear 'Top End' here was intended to mean top of the engine (heads/cams/valves) as was described in the 1st post and contrasted to 'Bottom End' - (block/crank/pistons) including the hybrid mixes noted.
The 'Faster' in question appears to mainly relate to track driving so presumably acceleration on a limited length track straight and out of corners/sweepers etc. - head to head racing being the measure...
Thats how I read it anyway
Alan
The 'Faster' in question appears to mainly relate to track driving so presumably acceleration on a limited length track straight and out of corners/sweepers etc. - head to head racing being the measure...
Thats how I read it anyway
Alan
04-08-2007, 09:10 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Alan - you are correct.
Problem is the longest track we have here in PHX is 2.2 miles and that track is CLOSED for "political" reasons. So no testing on Top Speeds anywhere. Top end is anywhere between 120-140mph on the tracks we currently run. And Im also assuming Rich was in second pulling from turn 12. (Tower Turn)
Still - I had a blast running the S2 , hopefully Rich will chime in to share his side of the track day. Until next event I have some work ahead - new liquid lines - new front bilsteins - and TIRES. Runnng on Front Street Kuhmos and Ra1s on the rear really dont work too well - LOL
BTW - Did mention a Viper and M3 went head to head - They Both Lost -
The long story short here is I need to make my S2 faster :-)
photo courtesy of Rich A ...
I took my shark home at 1/2 day into the event (Sprung a coolant leak - hose)
Problem is the longest track we have here in PHX is 2.2 miles and that track is CLOSED for "political" reasons. So no testing on Top Speeds anywhere. Top end is anywhere between 120-140mph on the tracks we currently run. And Im also assuming Rich was in second pulling from turn 12. (Tower Turn)
Still - I had a blast running the S2 , hopefully Rich will chime in to share his side of the track day. Until next event I have some work ahead - new liquid lines - new front bilsteins - and TIRES. Runnng on Front Street Kuhmos and Ra1s on the rear really dont work too well - LOL
BTW - Did mention a Viper and M3 went head to head - They Both Lost -
The long story short here is I need to make my S2 faster :-)
photo courtesy of Rich A ...
I took my shark home at 1/2 day into the event (Sprung a coolant leak - hose)
Last edited by Drewster67; 12-30-2012 at 11:15 AM.
