GTS values
03-06-2007, 05:34 PM
#1
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GTS values
It's probably obvious from some of my posts, that I'm interested in values for the 928.
here's my question: if you take a S4 or GT and add cross pipes, rmb and a chip, seems like you get pretty close to the what the 348? hp of the GTS.
There doesn't seem that much styling difference, but if you're a fanatic, say 2k for the relector between the tail lights (though that seems unnecessary).
Other than the fact that GTS's are rarer, (and cost one and a half times to double or more than a S4 or GT). I don't get it. Is there anything other than the hp which is night and day better, performance or comfort wise in the GTS over the S4/GT.
Add a supercharger, even though they're high for a relatively low valued car, and I assume the S4/GT will blow the socks off an GTS.
so I don't get the premium for the GTS, other than their rarity, but it would appear to me that it doesn't translate into better, let alone, dramatically better, justifying the costs, given that you can relatively easliy make an S4 a much better performer than a GTS. I suppose that the ultimate would be a supercharged GTS, but I don't see many out there or referred to here.
maybe someone can explain it to me, in simple words and concepts, because to me, it doesn't make any sense, for a value conscious person.
here's my question: if you take a S4 or GT and add cross pipes, rmb and a chip, seems like you get pretty close to the what the 348? hp of the GTS.
There doesn't seem that much styling difference, but if you're a fanatic, say 2k for the relector between the tail lights (though that seems unnecessary).
Other than the fact that GTS's are rarer, (and cost one and a half times to double or more than a S4 or GT). I don't get it. Is there anything other than the hp which is night and day better, performance or comfort wise in the GTS over the S4/GT.
Add a supercharger, even though they're high for a relatively low valued car, and I assume the S4/GT will blow the socks off an GTS.
so I don't get the premium for the GTS, other than their rarity, but it would appear to me that it doesn't translate into better, let alone, dramatically better, justifying the costs, given that you can relatively easliy make an S4 a much better performer than a GTS. I suppose that the ultimate would be a supercharged GTS, but I don't see many out there or referred to here.
maybe someone can explain it to me, in simple words and concepts, because to me, it doesn't make any sense, for a value conscious person.
03-06-2007, 05:41 PM
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Why does gold have value ?? because everyone thinks it does. Why is the air we inhale free ?? Why is a dollar bill worth $1 , beats the hell out of me ! The ONLY reason anyone buys a 928 is because they WANT IT !
03-06-2007, 06:02 PM
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Its clear you don't see the value so get a nice S4 and upgrade to get however much perfromance you want. Can that still be a great car - of course!!
Don't agonize over a GTS - just buy & upgrade to get what you think is the perfect car for you.
For me its not that much about performance - its more a collection of small improvements, rarity and they just look so darned sexy - something about the hips!
If the hips don't do it for you - get an S4 and save a bunch! I'm guessing most value conscious people don't buy GTS's
Alan
Don't agonize over a GTS - just buy & upgrade to get what you think is the perfect car for you.
For me its not that much about performance - its more a collection of small improvements, rarity and they just look so darned sexy - something about the hips!
If the hips don't do it for you - get an S4 and save a bunch! I'm guessing most value conscious people don't buy GTS's
Alan
03-06-2007, 06:20 PM
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Simply put, GTS's aren't for everyone. Most won't buy them because they just can't justify the cost...aside from not being able to afford them.
You are correct about upgrading an S4 or GT. There are a lot of those out there and tearing into one, you wouldn't feel as guilty. For the cost of a GTS, you can wing ding an S4 and muss up the paint of a GTS with your exhaust while still having money left over for several tanks of gas. This is another one of those "best kept secrets" thing about the 928 these days. Heck, just wait for an SC'd car to show up for sale, they are getting quite common these days. You don't pay near the costs and headaches of installing one and you have an SC'd car right out of the box. Turn the key and put another C6 on the BBQ.
Anyone who buys a GTS has the "little man/inadequate member" syndrome and feels they need to make up for it with the pinnicle of the Porsche front engine V8's. I don't get it...
You are correct about upgrading an S4 or GT. There are a lot of those out there and tearing into one, you wouldn't feel as guilty. For the cost of a GTS, you can wing ding an S4 and muss up the paint of a GTS with your exhaust while still having money left over for several tanks of gas. This is another one of those "best kept secrets" thing about the 928 these days. Heck, just wait for an SC'd car to show up for sale, they are getting quite common these days. You don't pay near the costs and headaches of installing one and you have an SC'd car right out of the box. Turn the key and put another C6 on the BBQ.
Anyone who buys a GTS has the "little man/inadequate member" syndrome and feels they need to make up for it with the pinnicle of the Porsche front engine V8's. I don't get it...
03-06-2007, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 928ntslow
Heck, just wait for an SC'd car to show up for sale, they are getting quite common these days. You don't pay near the costs and headaches of installing one and you have an SC'd car right out of the box. Turn the key and put another C6 on the BBQ.
but if you have to have more power (Jim) I would buy the least expensive best maintained car out there and not worry about it. Here's one the belongs to a list member which would be hard to replicate at his price: supercharged GTS
signed, Napoleon
03-06-2007, 06:56 PM
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The values are all over the board for every model year and each 928 model year has their pro/cons.
I think many of us here have a particular model year we like…and perhaps even two. I like several models. Some believe the 86.5 is the best bang for the buck, others the S4, and for many the GTS is considered the coveted machine. And, we all have our own ideas what we should be paying for them.
Each to their own….some here believe the OB are over looked, the S4 is under priced and the GTS over priced. And some believe the exact 180 of the above or parts thereof.
So yes, it doesn’t translate into what’s better, just what model year you want and what you are willing to pay for a used car.
And should you want a GTS but can’t afford the cash payment of $40K to $60K…finance or lease it. It’s no different then what most of us would do when normally purchasing a new car.
I think many of us here have a particular model year we like…and perhaps even two. I like several models. Some believe the 86.5 is the best bang for the buck, others the S4, and for many the GTS is considered the coveted machine. And, we all have our own ideas what we should be paying for them.
Each to their own….some here believe the OB are over looked, the S4 is under priced and the GTS over priced. And some believe the exact 180 of the above or parts thereof.
So yes, it doesn’t translate into what’s better, just what model year you want and what you are willing to pay for a used car.
And should you want a GTS but can’t afford the cash payment of $40K to $60K…finance or lease it. It’s no different then what most of us would do when normally purchasing a new car.
03-06-2007, 06:57 PM
#7
The GTS brings the ultimate in 928 prices cause its the ultimate example of Porsche's efforts of 18 or so years of developing the 928. Value is a perception as Jim says. Obviously enough people have such a perception of a GTS that their higher prices are paid enough on a regular basis to establish the values they have. As Alan said also, the look of the GTS is more than just the additional rear reflector, the wider rear fenders does enhance the stance of the GTS.
You are correct from the standpoint of pure horsepower if that were the only measuring point of concern. You could certainly take a good example of an S or S4/GT, upgrade with superchargers, turbos, chips, x-pipes, etc & have a screaming shark that looks great too. So ultimately, it does come down to a persons preferences and pocketbook, no matter which model 928 they buy.
You are correct from the standpoint of pure horsepower if that were the only measuring point of concern. You could certainly take a good example of an S or S4/GT, upgrade with superchargers, turbos, chips, x-pipes, etc & have a screaming shark that looks great too. So ultimately, it does come down to a persons preferences and pocketbook, no matter which model 928 they buy.
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03-06-2007, 07:42 PM
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I'm sure if you put an S4 next to a GTS most people could tell some of the differences, (the obvious one is the reflector), I looked at a GTS a couple of weeks ago, and I now have a S4 and I don't have an image in my mind of the how the GTS looked different. but then I'm new to the marquise.
Of course there are people with more money than they know what to do with, that will spend anything for anything.
what I was trying to figure out, is apart from the rarity issue, and the status issue, is there some performance or big styling issue, or safety issue or other performance issue which makes a GTS an objectively much superior car to an S4, some factor which non-addicts could agree is just head and shoulders above or more than the earlier models. There have been alot of answers and purported justifications, but the answer I glean from all of the responses is a No. People pay a big premium for them because people pay a big premium for them so on some level or for some reason, they must be worth it. Not a very convincing answer.
to me it looks like an irrationality in the market, which works because there are plenty of people out there for which an extra 20k is a rounding error. That I get. I don't get a working stiff (even white collar, highly paid working stiff) getting one, except for a very good price. But I guess I'm a value purchaser, and like to get the best bang for the buck, which is what's common in all of my classics. Different strokes for different folks.
Of course there are people with more money than they know what to do with, that will spend anything for anything.
what I was trying to figure out, is apart from the rarity issue, and the status issue, is there some performance or big styling issue, or safety issue or other performance issue which makes a GTS an objectively much superior car to an S4, some factor which non-addicts could agree is just head and shoulders above or more than the earlier models. There have been alot of answers and purported justifications, but the answer I glean from all of the responses is a No. People pay a big premium for them because people pay a big premium for them so on some level or for some reason, they must be worth it. Not a very convincing answer.
to me it looks like an irrationality in the market, which works because there are plenty of people out there for which an extra 20k is a rounding error. That I get. I don't get a working stiff (even white collar, highly paid working stiff) getting one, except for a very good price. But I guess I'm a value purchaser, and like to get the best bang for the buck, which is what's common in all of my classics. Different strokes for different folks.
03-06-2007, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by rickjaffe
I'm sure if you put an S4 next to a GTS most people could tell some of the differences, (the obvious one is the reflector), I looked at a GTS a couple of weeks ago, and I now have a S4 and I don't have an image in my mind of the how the GTS looked different. but then I'm new to the marquise.
Of course there are people with more money than they know what to do with, that will spend anything for anything.
what I was trying to figure out, is apart from the rarity issue, and the status issue, is there some performance or big styling issue, or safety issue or other performance issue which makes a GTS an objectively much superior car to an S4, some factor which non-addicts could agree is just head and shoulders above or more than the earlier models. There have been alot of answers and purported justifications, but the answer I glean from all of the responses is a No. People pay a big premium for them because people pay a big premium for them so on some level or for some reason, they must be worth it. Not a very convincing answer.
to me it looks like an irrationality in the market, which works because there are plenty of people out there for which an extra 20k is a rounding error. That I get. I don't get a working stiff (even white collar, highly paid working stiff) getting one, except for a very good price. But I guess I'm a value purchaser, and like to get the best bang for the buck, which is what's common in all of my classics. Different strokes for different folks.
Of course there are people with more money than they know what to do with, that will spend anything for anything.
what I was trying to figure out, is apart from the rarity issue, and the status issue, is there some performance or big styling issue, or safety issue or other performance issue which makes a GTS an objectively much superior car to an S4, some factor which non-addicts could agree is just head and shoulders above or more than the earlier models. There have been alot of answers and purported justifications, but the answer I glean from all of the responses is a No. People pay a big premium for them because people pay a big premium for them so on some level or for some reason, they must be worth it. Not a very convincing answer.
to me it looks like an irrationality in the market, which works because there are plenty of people out there for which an extra 20k is a rounding error. That I get. I don't get a working stiff (even white collar, highly paid working stiff) getting one, except for a very good price. But I guess I'm a value purchaser, and like to get the best bang for the buck, which is what's common in all of my classics. Different strokes for different folks.
03-06-2007, 08:19 PM
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*** Man (Duh, no pun intended)
As my choice in Avatar's should hint, I am an *** man.
In my eye, the swollen *** end of a GTS simply makes the car. In my eye.
I've loved the 928 since it came out but always assumed that I would never own one. Last year, for personal reasons, I decided that I should spoil myself. Although I am very uncomfortable with the amount I spent for a toy, once I decided to be extravagant I wanted the best I could buy. The GTS, in my mind, is the pinnacle. Whether it is worth it to you is a personal matter. To you, it may seem like the pinnacle of stupidity to spend the extra money. Find your comfort zone, know what you want and do it. If that ain't enough, cry me a river...
In my eye, the swollen *** end of a GTS simply makes the car. In my eye.
I've loved the 928 since it came out but always assumed that I would never own one. Last year, for personal reasons, I decided that I should spoil myself. Although I am very uncomfortable with the amount I spent for a toy, once I decided to be extravagant I wanted the best I could buy. The GTS, in my mind, is the pinnacle. Whether it is worth it to you is a personal matter. To you, it may seem like the pinnacle of stupidity to spend the extra money. Find your comfort zone, know what you want and do it. If that ain't enough, cry me a river...
03-06-2007, 08:19 PM
#11
From Road & Track:
OK, here's the skinny. The GTS had a new all aluminum 4 cam 32 valve engine pushing from 5 to 5.4 liters giving it an extra 19 bhp over the GT. It also has better stopping with larger discs. Handling is improved with softer acting shocks that help keep the wider rear rear wheels planted - thus the flared fenders. The taillights, tear drop mirrors look a bit more integrated to the design.
Overall the styling improvements for the GTS, although subtle, bring the car to the most contemporary design position for any of the 928s. I have to admit that after wanting one for 20 years the early models are certainly dated. The GTS is date for that matter but hums a sweeter tune.
Having said all of that I'm confused by the point of downplaying the car. It's awesome! As is the entire run of 928s. As for the dollar spent, if it's not worth it to you then no point giving it thought. It is apparently worth it for many. For me? There was no choice, I had to have one. Now I'm after a GT.
OK, here's the skinny. The GTS had a new all aluminum 4 cam 32 valve engine pushing from 5 to 5.4 liters giving it an extra 19 bhp over the GT. It also has better stopping with larger discs. Handling is improved with softer acting shocks that help keep the wider rear rear wheels planted - thus the flared fenders. The taillights, tear drop mirrors look a bit more integrated to the design.
Overall the styling improvements for the GTS, although subtle, bring the car to the most contemporary design position for any of the 928s. I have to admit that after wanting one for 20 years the early models are certainly dated. The GTS is date for that matter but hums a sweeter tune.
Having said all of that I'm confused by the point of downplaying the car. It's awesome! As is the entire run of 928s. As for the dollar spent, if it's not worth it to you then no point giving it thought. It is apparently worth it for many. For me? There was no choice, I had to have one. Now I'm after a GT.
03-06-2007, 08:44 PM
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The incremental changes are:
+0.4 of a liter (stroke), new cams, reworked oil pan baffle, modified breather system, dual airbags*, PSD*, digi-dash/new pod*, wider rear track & flared rear fenders, wider rear tires/17"wheels (255/40 & 225/45), rear reflector, pollen filer (94+), shorter shifter, big brakes (about the best ever), stronger gearbox on MT w/ upgraded oil cooler, upgraded clutch on MT, R134a AC system, Aero Mirrors, some suspension changes, Rear Air/Sunroof standard
*some S4's model yrs had this as std/option - most did not.
Again all of these are incremental improvements... to me the reflector is one of the smallest parts - the wider rear fenders are what really sets a GTS apart visually - but there is more under the skin as above... lots of little things... - expensive if you wanted them to add them all...
Alan
+0.4 of a liter (stroke), new cams, reworked oil pan baffle, modified breather system, dual airbags*, PSD*, digi-dash/new pod*, wider rear track & flared rear fenders, wider rear tires/17"wheels (255/40 & 225/45), rear reflector, pollen filer (94+), shorter shifter, big brakes (about the best ever), stronger gearbox on MT w/ upgraded oil cooler, upgraded clutch on MT, R134a AC system, Aero Mirrors, some suspension changes, Rear Air/Sunroof standard
*some S4's model yrs had this as std/option - most did not.
Again all of these are incremental improvements... to me the reflector is one of the smallest parts - the wider rear fenders are what really sets a GTS apart visually - but there is more under the skin as above... lots of little things... - expensive if you wanted them to add them all...
Alan
Last edited by Alan; 03-06-2007 at 09:35 PM. Reason: Sp.!
03-06-2007, 08:46 PM
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Besides the obvious interior/exterior esthetics IE: Rear fender flairs, rear bumper strip, electronic dash (Pre-89’ MY) and such. It behooves you to, when deciding on a particular model year to buy, to understand the mechanical differences between the models. Many of which I’m not going to spend the time to research and list here. That info is readily available through a Rennlist search.
Like I eluded to earlier, although 928 may to the untrained eye look the same (More or less) on the outside, each MY is very unique in its own way.
EDITED:...errr...also what Alan just said.
Like I eluded to earlier, although 928 may to the untrained eye look the same (More or less) on the outside, each MY is very unique in its own way.
EDITED:...errr...also what Alan just said.
03-06-2007, 09:32 PM
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OK...you want the truth...you got it...
Anyone who owns a GTS wants to be envied by the rest of the 928 community! In fact, the cars are detuned from what was origally planned for the GTS (since it was a dog of a seller and priced out of the stratusphere and Porsche wasn't going phase out the "fastest" car in their line up), the wider stance was to compensate for the squirrelyness of the 928 getting loose in the corners with the added power and those ridiculous flares are like parachute pants having no usefulness but to slow the car down at speed. They weigh more than any other 928 and it just makes no reasonable sense to own one.
I say buy an 87 or 88 car, strap an iron lung on it and barf flames out of the exhaust to prove that GTS's are for wannabe's and dentists wives!
Anyone who owns a GTS wants to be envied by the rest of the 928 community! In fact, the cars are detuned from what was origally planned for the GTS (since it was a dog of a seller and priced out of the stratusphere and Porsche wasn't going phase out the "fastest" car in their line up), the wider stance was to compensate for the squirrelyness of the 928 getting loose in the corners with the added power and those ridiculous flares are like parachute pants having no usefulness but to slow the car down at speed. They weigh more than any other 928 and it just makes no reasonable sense to own one.
I say buy an 87 or 88 car, strap an iron lung on it and barf flames out of the exhaust to prove that GTS's are for wannabe's and dentists wives!