GT vs S4 5spd
02-24-2007, 09:58 AM
#46
Race Car
Originally Posted by atb
I thought Louie had posted some cam timing dyno results that didn't appear to show much change, just a sliding over of the torque peaks.
02-24-2007, 11:56 AM
#47
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by UKKid35
S4 is 2.64 in Europe (or RoW)
Code:
'87-89 S4 ROW 5sp G28/12 2.64:1 40% LSD optional '87-88 S4 US 5sp G28/13 2.20:1 40% LSD optional '88-89 CS ROW G28/55 2.73:1 40% LSD '88 CS US G28/55 2.73:1 40% LSD '88 SE UK G28/55 2.73:1 40% LSD '89 S4 US 5sp G28/12 2.64:1 40% LSD optional '89 GT ROW G28/55 2.73:1 40% LSD '89 GT US G28/55 2.73:1 40% LSD '90-91 GT ROW G28/55 2.73:1 PSD '90-91 GT US G28/55 2.73:1 PSD
AFAIK there isn't any concrete proof that '89 5sp is rarer in US than same year GT. Factory had 08/88 - 02/89 time to do them while only 02/89 - 07/89 to do GT's. Its even possible they did more than one 5sp S4 during GT production also. While Chuck's site has many more GT VIN's than 5sp this doesn't prove anything other than Chuck and others have been collecting them for longer. Also GT owners are probably much more likely to report their "special" cars to the list.
Last '89 MY US model VIN should be 1250. This means that factory did 1250 - 1100 = 150 cars during 02/89 - 07/89 GT production period. Out of the 150 almost half is GTs. Obviously there were interest into new model and maybe there were some orders which were delayed and waiting for GT production to start. This could partly explain somewhat lower S4 5sp production than in previous years.
None of the above is on other hand proof that there is less '89 5sp S4's than GT's. There can obviously be. Its just unlikely as less would mean only under 7% of 08/88 - 02/89 production of 1060 US models were 5 speed. This would be clearly lower percentage than in any other time period in 928 production.
These are factory charts for S4 and GT.
02-24-2007, 12:02 PM
#48
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Vilhuer
....AFAIK there isn't any concrete proof that '89 5sp is rarer in US than same year GT. Factory had 08/88 - 02/89 time to do them while only 02/89 - 07/89 to do GT's. Its even possible they did more than one 5sp S4 during GT production also. While Chuck's site has many more GT VIN's than 5sp this doesn't prove anything other than Chuck and others have been collecting them for longer. Also GT owners are probably much more likely to report their "special" cars to the list.... Obviously there were interest into new model and maybe there were some orders which were delayed and waiting for GT production to start. This could partly explain somewhat lower S4 5sp production than in previous years.
None of the above is on other hand proof that there is less '89 5sp S4's than GT's. There can obviously be. Its just unlikely as less would mean only under 7% of 08/88 - 02/89 production of 1060 US models were 5 speed. This would be clearly lower percentage than in any other time period in 928 production.
...
None of the above is on other hand proof that there is less '89 5sp S4's than GT's. There can obviously be. Its just unlikely as less would mean only under 7% of 08/88 - 02/89 production of 1060 US models were 5 speed. This would be clearly lower percentage than in any other time period in 928 production.
...
.... Would it be likely that ANYONE who wanted a 5-speed that year would have bought a GT, as it was new, long-awaited, exciting?
02-24-2007, 12:13 PM
#49
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by heinrich
LOTS of supposition, guessing, argument here my friend .... Would it be likely that ANYONE who wanted a 5-speed that year would have bought a GT, as it was new, long-awaited, exciting?
.... Would it be likely that ANYONE who wanted a 5-speed that year would have bought a GT, as it was new, long-awaited, exciting?
02-24-2007, 01:57 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been trying to "be nice" about this but I should point out that Carl's comparison of my GT to his "sorted" S4 is bull****.
The GT has Konis and Eibachs, balanced injectors, an X-pipe, full alignment and has DYNO DOCUMENTED 310HP at the rear wheels. What Carl's input proves is that his perceptions, like those of the rest of us, are based on opinion and expectation and not reality.
His car may be a strong highway creampuff, relatively speaking, but I'll take mine on the track any day.
The GT has Konis and Eibachs, balanced injectors, an X-pipe, full alignment and has DYNO DOCUMENTED 310HP at the rear wheels. What Carl's input proves is that his perceptions, like those of the rest of us, are based on opinion and expectation and not reality.
His car may be a strong highway creampuff, relatively speaking, but I'll take mine on the track any day.
02-24-2007, 04:33 PM
#52
Drifting
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: an unnatural suburban habitat
Posts: 2,902
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ernest: that was just my honest s.o.p. opinion, no disrespect meant.
However, I am very glad to have Dave C. working on my car for the technical stuff!!!!
Musante has a dynapack dyno, and I hope to get in a run on it this spring; not for any bragging rights but just as more data to know how she's doing.
p.s. Amy drove the GT half the time and she had no complaints about lack of passing power. She owns a '30 ford with a 3 speed and is a better driver with a manual than I am.
However, I am very glad to have Dave C. working on my car for the technical stuff!!!!
Musante has a dynapack dyno, and I hope to get in a run on it this spring; not for any bragging rights but just as more data to know how she's doing.
p.s. Amy drove the GT half the time and she had no complaints about lack of passing power. She owns a '30 ford with a 3 speed and is a better driver with a manual than I am.
02-24-2007, 05:14 PM
#53
Supercharged
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Back in Michigan - Full time!
Posts: 18,925
Likes: 0
Received 60 Likes
on
34 Posts
GT's are better. It's kinda like having a **** that goes to 11! 
Seriously though, I don't think I saw it, but the GT's do have a higher rev-limit at 6800 vs. 6600. And it has been siggested by people that really know 928 engines that you could bump that up to 7000-7200 without issue.
On the 90-91 models, there is an improved steering gear - but that's a MY difference, not a GT/5-speed difference.
I'l try to think of other difference, but I think most of them are out there now.
Seriously though, I don't think I saw it, but the GT's do have a higher rev-limit at 6800 vs. 6600. And it has been siggested by people that really know 928 engines that you could bump that up to 7000-7200 without issue.
On the 90-91 models, there is an improved steering gear - but that's a MY difference, not a GT/5-speed difference.
I'l try to think of other difference, but I think most of them are out there now.
02-24-2007, 08:08 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Andrew Olson
GT's are better. It's kinda like having a **** that goes to 11!
Seriously though, I don't think I saw it, but the GT's do have a higher rev-limit at 6800 vs. 6600. And it has been siggested by people that really know 928 engines that you could bump that up to 7000-7200 without issue.
Seriously though, I don't think I saw it, but the GT's do have a higher rev-limit at 6800 vs. 6600. And it has been siggested by people that really know 928 engines that you could bump that up to 7000-7200 without issue.
02-24-2007, 08:25 PM
#56
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Musante has a dynapack dyno, and I hope to get in a run on it this spring;
The GT wakes up at high RPM. The S4 seems better in the midrange.
I actually like my EuroS the best right now
02-24-2007, 09:43 PM
#57
Supercharged
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Back in Michigan - Full time!
Posts: 18,925
Likes: 0
Received 60 Likes
on
34 Posts
Originally Posted by the flyin' scotsman
Wonder what the power o/p would be if we could raise the rpm to 16-20k as modern superbikes and F1 cars?............too ricey?
02-24-2007, 11:23 PM
#59
Drifting
Having the chance to play with many quantities and conditions of both, the GT seems more eager to respond and begs to be driven hard. Condition shouldn't be considered because there are way too many variables. I have quite a few S4 5-speeds dynoing in the 290 rwhp area and we have two 89' GT's of our own. One has never been to the dyno, it's a pristine queen. The other is a total blast to drive. It has one of our X's with cats and Koni's/Hypercoils, putting down 310 rear. There is something about it that just teases you to tap redline.
As far as performance, an S4 5-speed can easily be made to outperform a GT but it's still not a GT. The rarity of the GT puts it in a different class as far as I'm concerned. I would be concerned with keeping the miles down on a GT.
I can make an 86.5' 5-speed dyno at 300rwhp, it's the most bang for the buck and is an exceptional ride! It will out accelerate an S4 without any problems. With some suspension work it will outrun a GT with much less total investment. If it's about the money, the GT is not the right choice for a driver. I think they will continue to appreciate and pristine examples will have investment capability. There are different flavors for different tastes, a rare pristine GT for some may be the right ticket, a stock S4 5-speed with a savings account may be for someone else. I don't think there is a right vs. wrong, it is more personal taste. A high mile GT driver would keep me from feeling guilty about modifying or driving...I think I just found my flavor!
As far as performance, an S4 5-speed can easily be made to outperform a GT but it's still not a GT. The rarity of the GT puts it in a different class as far as I'm concerned. I would be concerned with keeping the miles down on a GT.
I can make an 86.5' 5-speed dyno at 300rwhp, it's the most bang for the buck and is an exceptional ride! It will out accelerate an S4 without any problems. With some suspension work it will outrun a GT with much less total investment. If it's about the money, the GT is not the right choice for a driver. I think they will continue to appreciate and pristine examples will have investment capability. There are different flavors for different tastes, a rare pristine GT for some may be the right ticket, a stock S4 5-speed with a savings account may be for someone else. I don't think there is a right vs. wrong, it is more personal taste. A high mile GT driver would keep me from feeling guilty about modifying or driving...I think I just found my flavor!