JHowell37

The silicone he was referring to is most likely a product that is commonly known as "fisheye eliminator." Most paint tech sheets recommend using the stuff only if you absolutely have to. "Fisheyes" on paint are usually a result of contamination on the substrate beneath the paint. They are often caused by trace amounts of silicone that are left over from spraying too much armor all. It should only be used if it is absolutely necessary because it's not curing the problem, it's merely putting on a band-aid.

Anything with a high-solid content is going to provide greater coverage with less material. I know what it means, but it's difficult to explain. I'll give it a shot. A gallon of paint is made up of pigments, binders, and solvents. The pigment is the color. The binders do just that, they bind things together. In this case, the binders bind the pigment molecules together and to the surface of the vehicle. Binders and pigments are solids. Solvents allow the pigments and binders to flow in a fluid state, but the solvents then flash off (evaporate.) The solids are what is left after the paint had dried. Most etching primers are low in solids. This is why a coat of etching primer is usually somewhat transparent. For it's purposes however, low solids are ideal for etching primers. High-build primers contain a very high solids content because they are used for filling. When the solvents in high-build evaporate, a lot of material is left on the substrate.

Most paints used today are some form of acyllic polyurethane. The solids content in most of these modern paints is much higher then the older laquers. The benefit of a high solids content is that you get very good color, and you get better coverage with less material. On a laquer paint job, you may have to spray 10 coats to get complete coverage. On a quality modern polyurethane, complete coverage can be acheived in 2-3 coats. I could go on, but I think this should do it.

JHowell37

A few other things to mention. I would be leery of blasting my car with a 1300 PSI power washer. I don't recommend doing this. Most high-builds specify either 320 dry or 600 wet when doing the final sanding on high-build. I don't think that's the issue.

It seems like paint thickness can be ruled out as a cause of your problem. I just re-read some of your posts and my next comments are likely to cause heated debate on this topic.

There are several things you must understand about paint. Paint doesn't like to stick to much of anything. High-build primer doesn't rate too high for it's adhesion abilities. High-build is also porous and can absorb moisture as well as solvents (from paint for example.) High-build sticks to epoxy but that's a result of the epoxy holding onto the high-build.

So you're problem is coming from the fact that paint, which doesn't like to stick to anything, has been applied over high-build, which only sticks when something else holds onto it. Here's where the pros go ballistic. There's an additional step that should be used over the high-build called sealer. Sealer can be made by reducing epoxy and then doing a wet-on-wet application of the paint. Or you can buy primers specifically called sealer for this purpose. Most pros don't like to use sealer because it takes extra time and costs more money. Paint chipping is not covered under any guarantee so they can get away with this practice and blame the problems on the owner's poor driving skills. Another benefit of sealer is that it seals. It seals in everything under it. It keeps incompatible chemicals from interacting with each other. It adds an extra layer of corrosion resistance. It produces a uniform color on the surface to prevent coverage issues. Sealer will hang onto the high-build, and then it will also hang onto the paint.

I am certain the pros will flame me for this blaspheme.

BC

The PPG info had no info about a sealer that I saw in the different stages options before I purchased all the material. Price at that level was not really an issue, so I would have bought sealer to put over the high build (which WAS needed because of the body, no real dents, just a 27 year old car).

BC

And no one will be flaming anyone on this thread or I'll shut it down. Things threads are important and alot of info is shared.

Warren928

I knew alot of autobody painters including myself and we all used the fisheye stuff in the small squirt bottle as a precaution, not a band aid. And we used it on every type of top paint, it just helps the paint flow better. And sure, you may luck out on some minor orange peel, but it wont save you from a major prep defect.

BC

I took the car out again this last weekend and did a real thurough inspection of it because I think I have decided to use it as a race car. It is already stripped of every bracket, unneeded bolt, and sound deadening, so its perfect for a race car project. It also looks like it was just painted, and looks very nice if you don't look at the (increasing) paint chips on the body at the rear hatch and door.

The bumpers, which we all know are very flexible, are indeed getting cracked at the top area where the hatch corners into the body. I used Flexible primer over a Plastic adhesion promoter on this (remember I did everything up until color and clear) area, and then I think the shop may have not done so much regarding the flexible agents in this area. Oh well, live and learn.

Every single chip has stopped at my high build primer unless it was a more serious hit, like when the hood was moved and was rammed into the cieling of the garage - that went down to the aluminum, and the paint there comes off with the primer like egg shells.

But as I said, the rest of the chips stop at the light grey high build primer that was the final stage before paint. The car say for a long time in that stage before I was able to get someone to spray the color and clear. That is probably the real issue, if there is one, as JHowell has mentioned.

As was also mentioned, the paint on the 86 is many times harder then this paint on the 78. Imagine a 13mm open ended wrench that is inadvertently dropped onto a door or fender. On the 86, it will leave a "Scuff" and possibly a dent.

On the 78 it will rip off the paint wherever the wrench touched.

I tested this because its so frustrating for me to look at the car every day and see all the work and money I put into the project, and the outcome looks great from 10 feet away. Even close up if you don't look at the actual chips. There isn't even much orange peel. I tested this by taking a small wrench and bashing at the fender on the 86 where it already has ripping damage from some asswipe taking the front spoiler off improperly. The paint is failing in very small areas there.

I bashed the wrench against the paint, where it is chipping, and could not damage the paint with a moderate force.

The same test immediately removes 1/16 inch diameter chips from the 78s paint.

I bring this thead back up because the bumpers on the 86 (and maybe some other spots) will need a total repaint (bumpers can be bead blasted to get the paint off smoothly). I don't want this **** to happen again.

JHowell37

Most modern base coats do not require a flex additive. The high-build primer does. And most importantly, the clear coat requires one. If your paint is cracking, and you used flex additive in the steps you did, then I'd bet the painter didn't use it on his end in the clear.

heinrich

This is super depressing

heinrich

I want to put a kameleon clear over one of my cars, but I am SO SCARED.

BC

Maybe Oscar can help me out here.

fst951

I still don't think you guys get it. I don't suspect the product was the problem. It was the preparation. I have seen it time and time again with many different products, even Glasurit.

Keep on chasing the ghost....but it won't help. I know John Galt! The Fountainhead was much much better, however.

BC

I'm not chasing a Ghost. There is nothing I can change on this situation at all. I know that. I need to learn what happened. What part of the prep could have been done wrong? The K38 was supposed to be okay when it sat. It sat in the sun for a long time before it was again sanded and cleaned for the color coat. Maybe the shop didn't use the proper grit paper to get the color to bind. Maybe Howell is right and I should have had them seal it and then do the color and clear

I lost the ability to continue painting at the place that I did the rest of the stages at. I followed directions, read data Sheets, and paid close attention.

Maybe I just have overestimated how new paint is supposed to react to abuse and direct hits. Production paint doesn't come off like this, but maybe the material we get as end users isn't.

People talk about "prep" as if its some sort of mystery science, and its not. There are set procedures that will work. Other then the possibility that a well-respected paint shop failed at completing a few simple prep proceedures when they had my car, I am afraid to do more painting if the material itself is simply not very strong for whatever reason.

Yet anothe good example is that on a new car or even an original paint 928, a door ding would dent the metal with a scuff or scratch on the paint. I swear that if a normal door dong event happened on this car it would rip the paint right off.

But they were using 500-600 grit paper when I was there before they painted the car. I don't think they changed it later but I guess thats possible. On the K38, that and a good clean is all that is supposed to be required to get the top coat to bind.

BC

I didn't use the K38 on the bumpers. I used Specific, special purpose, flexible bumper primer on the bumpers.

JHowell37

I don't think anyone is chasing ghosts here and we get it just fine. When painting a plastic bumper that is as soft as on the 928 it becomes imperative that the plastic refinishing instructions from the chosen paint company are adhered to with a religious devotion. If the painter leaves out something like a flex additive in the clear coat, a 928 bumper will show this almost immediately. I've dealt with more then my fair share of painters in my day and frankly, I've heard too many of them say things like "oh, you don't need to do that," and shortly after, you start seeing problems turn up that could have otherwise been avoided. I'm not saying that Brendan should rule out other possibilities, I'm simply making a suggestion based on what I've witnessed numerous times over the years. I would attempt to lift off a piece of the paint on the bumper cover. Being able to do that would be grounds for concern. But let's say that he can lift off a piece of the paint. What is on the bottom side? If you just see paint, there's an adhesion issue. If you try to bend that paint chip, does it break immediately? If so, then you can bet there was no flex additive in the clear coat. This could then be blamed on the painter.

The easy response is to always blame the prep. What is typically defined as "prep" when it comes to a repaint is simply, sanding, cleaning, and masking. A product problem is usually just that. A defective product. The chances of getting a defective product are slim to none and this is why most paint products are guaranteed for life. In this case, I'd bet that what he has is a product failure that happened not from a defective product, nor from bad "prep." It's happened from not using the required products for the job.

BC

Need a vacation? How about Sunny San Diego. Room and Board free. There's just a few things I would need in return.