Seattle POWER OUTAGE
12-19-2006, 08:22 PM
#19
Chronic Tool Dropper
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I'm in the power business too. Built a plant within a klik or two of Shane's Washington palace a few years ago. The problems from the weather typically aren't generation problems, but fall under the 'T&D' (Transmission and Distribution) category.
Here at the dr bob world headquarters in SoCal, we live at the lower end of a pretty springy (unstable) section of the local muni utility's 'grid'. Here the 'grid' looks a lot like a stick. Anyway, we get blacked out way too regularly, especially when the cost of SoCal power is really high and they can resell capacity at a huge markup... at the same time that they claim that "a squirrel got into our transformer yard". Yeah right! So we have a 12kw natural gas powered standby generator behind the garage. Auto transfer switch kicks it on after a few minutes of no incoming power. It's easily enough to run three fridges, one of the two AC units, most of the lights and the garage door openers. I'm cool, got cold drinks, and we can get the cars out. Keep in mind that we can see downtown L.A. and the ocean beyond in Santa Monica bay, so it's hardly out in the sticks. Yet we still have that generator running for some reason at least a couple times a month in the best months. Oh, cost was less than $3k all in. If your world headquarters is subject to T&D problems, you can bypass those with local generation. It keeps the lights on.
We have a warranty claim being processed for some roofing that didn't survive the wind velocities that were guaranteed by the manufacturer. The bucks from that will go toward a solar array on the south-facing roof at the rear of the headquarters building. That should be even more interesting. Full-sun capacity will be in the 3kW range, slightly more than we use on a summer afternoon. It should be a break-even over the year, assuming that the city utility can decide to comp[ly with some state regs on connected local solar generation. Oh boy! Save a few $hundred a month average.
Here at the dr bob world headquarters in SoCal, we live at the lower end of a pretty springy (unstable) section of the local muni utility's 'grid'. Here the 'grid' looks a lot like a stick. Anyway, we get blacked out way too regularly, especially when the cost of SoCal power is really high and they can resell capacity at a huge markup... at the same time that they claim that "a squirrel got into our transformer yard". Yeah right! So we have a 12kw natural gas powered standby generator behind the garage. Auto transfer switch kicks it on after a few minutes of no incoming power. It's easily enough to run three fridges, one of the two AC units, most of the lights and the garage door openers. I'm cool, got cold drinks, and we can get the cars out. Keep in mind that we can see downtown L.A. and the ocean beyond in Santa Monica bay, so it's hardly out in the sticks. Yet we still have that generator running for some reason at least a couple times a month in the best months. Oh, cost was less than $3k all in. If your world headquarters is subject to T&D problems, you can bypass those with local generation. It keeps the lights on.
We have a warranty claim being processed for some roofing that didn't survive the wind velocities that were guaranteed by the manufacturer. The bucks from that will go toward a solar array on the south-facing roof at the rear of the headquarters building. That should be even more interesting. Full-sun capacity will be in the 3kW range, slightly more than we use on a summer afternoon. It should be a break-even over the year, assuming that the city utility can decide to comp[ly with some state regs on connected local solar generation. Oh boy! Save a few $hundred a month average.
12-19-2006, 09:22 PM
#20
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Bob,
One of our engineers here at work installed a solar panel system. IIRC he said something to the effect that PG&E won't pay you if your meter runs backwards. I think his solution was to get billed annually, which averages out the times when he generates more than he uses vs the times when he uses more than he generates.
One of our engineers here at work installed a solar panel system. IIRC he said something to the effect that PG&E won't pay you if your meter runs backwards. I think his solution was to get billed annually, which averages out the times when he generates more than he uses vs the times when he uses more than he generates.
12-19-2006, 09:41 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
We use wind turbines (Pincher Creek/Cowley Ridge) to generate pwr and reverse our meters. We are not paid either but power is anualized.........because we're restricted on the size of the turbine for personal use we still pay ' a little' although at current rates we should see favourable ROI.
As the wind almost always turns the turbine and with future solar we should be able to eliminate the grid..............sorry dr. Bob.
As the wind almost always turns the turbine and with future solar we should be able to eliminate the grid..............sorry dr. Bob.
12-19-2006, 10:08 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by dr bob
...
Here at the dr bob world headquarters in SoCal, ...
we have a 12kw natural gas powered standby generator behind the garage. Auto transfer switch kicks it on after a few minutes of no incoming power. It's easily enough to run three fridges, one of the two AC units, most of the lights and the garage door openers. I'm cool, got cold drinks, and we can get the cars out. Keep in mind that we can see downtown L.A. and the ocean beyond in Santa Monica bay, so it's hardly out in the sticks. Yet we still have that generator running for some reason at least a couple times a month in the best months. Oh, cost was less than $3k all in. If your world headquarters is subject to T&D problems, you can bypass those with local generation. It keeps the lights on.
We have a warranty claim being processed for some roofing that didn't survive the wind velocities that were guaranteed by the manufacturer. The bucks from that will go toward a solar array on the south-facing roof at the rear of the headquarters building. That should be even more interesting. Full-sun capacity will be in the 3kW range, slightly more than we use on a summer afternoon. It should be a break-even over the year, assuming that the city utility can decide to comp[ly with some state regs on connected local solar generation. Oh boy! Save a few $hundred a month average.
Here at the dr bob world headquarters in SoCal, ...
we have a 12kw natural gas powered standby generator behind the garage. Auto transfer switch kicks it on after a few minutes of no incoming power. It's easily enough to run three fridges, one of the two AC units, most of the lights and the garage door openers. I'm cool, got cold drinks, and we can get the cars out. Keep in mind that we can see downtown L.A. and the ocean beyond in Santa Monica bay, so it's hardly out in the sticks. Yet we still have that generator running for some reason at least a couple times a month in the best months. Oh, cost was less than $3k all in. If your world headquarters is subject to T&D problems, you can bypass those with local generation. It keeps the lights on.
We have a warranty claim being processed for some roofing that didn't survive the wind velocities that were guaranteed by the manufacturer. The bucks from that will go toward a solar array on the south-facing roof at the rear of the headquarters building. That should be even more interesting. Full-sun capacity will be in the 3kW range, slightly more than we use on a summer afternoon. It should be a break-even over the year, assuming that the city utility can decide to comp[ly with some state regs on connected local solar generation. Oh boy! Save a few $hundred a month average.
Once the dust settles up here in the PacNW I'll be getting my emergency preparations setup a little better. We're doing pretty good now with my old generator and a local PacNW lister helped me wire up my furnace so we're actually pretty comfortable, but it could be done better and safer.
I would love to be independent of the power grid, its a retirement goal of mine, to be living utility free in my retirement home. We'll see how it goes. -Ed
12-20-2006, 01:32 AM
#24
Chronic Tool Dropper
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We aren't utility-free and never will be. I just want to slow the bleeding as much as I can. Engineer married to a CPA, yet she's the one looking at the solar stuff while I look at ROI and time-to-payout projections. Backwards! Anyway, we'll probably do it only because I have to put something up there and somebody else is going to pay for a large part. It's about $16k in roof replacement allowance, and I figure $20-30k all in for the solar. We'll recover a lot of that with utility rebates and alternative-energy tax credits.
That problem with getting them to "pay" me for the meter running backwards will be a chore here too. It took an act of congress to get them to allow more than the 3 cents/kw "energy" component as credit anyway. They originally wanted separate directional metering, where they would bill me for 14.5 cents/kwh for everything we use net at any given time, then credit us 3 cents/kwh max for any that we have surplus at any given time. I have a pretty fair understanding of how the bills are figured, so this is always an interesting discussion with the crew at the muni utility here.
That problem with getting them to "pay" me for the meter running backwards will be a chore here too. It took an act of congress to get them to allow more than the 3 cents/kw "energy" component as credit anyway. They originally wanted separate directional metering, where they would bill me for 14.5 cents/kwh for everything we use net at any given time, then credit us 3 cents/kwh max for any that we have surplus at any given time. I have a pretty fair understanding of how the bills are figured, so this is always an interesting discussion with the crew at the muni utility here.
12-20-2006, 02:11 AM
#25
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Originally Posted by dr bob
That problem with getting them to "pay" me for the meter running backwards will be a chore here too. It took an act of congress to get them to allow more than the 3 cents/kw "energy" component as credit anyway. They originally wanted separate directional metering, where they would bill me for 14.5 cents/kwh for everything we use net at any given time, then credit us 3 cents/kwh max for any that we have surplus at any given time. I have a pretty fair understanding of how the bills are figured, so this is always an interesting discussion with the crew at the muni utility here.
12-20-2006, 02:55 AM
#26
We've had stronger windstorms here in the past (1962, 1993), but never this much power outage. November was the rainiest month in Seattle history, so the ground was water-saturated. It didn't take much wind to blow the trees over.
12-20-2006, 10:34 AM
#27
Chronic Tool Dropper
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The mini-muni 'utilities' (like my beloved City of Glendale Water & Power) are asking for (and assuming) relief from the state and federal rules. As part of the interconnect agreement, they want to require directional metering. They say they don't profit from transmission fees, but those fees and the taxes and other 'allowances' make up a large part of the bill. Deregulation required that the energy portion of the bill be discounted. Utilities quickly separated that from the tax/transmission/distribution part so they only discount a small amount. Now when I try to sell them power in the daytime and buy some of it back at night, they still want the transmission and taxes portion no matter which way the power is flowing on their wires. The utility is right to ask for that since I'm wheeling my power across their wires; it just doesn't line up well with recent state and soon federal policy on the issue. Plus, where I live in their distribution area, they want a lot more protection in the relaying, including the ability to do a remote-disconnect to my tie breaker to protect their wires from me. Guess who gets to pay for all that...
Fortunately, the electric industry industry sends checks to me that are a LOT bigger than my checks to them. 'Balance of power' is still in my favor, at least so long as I feel like working.
Mansatory 928 content:
The 928 is sitting in the garage secure, as 80mph winds ripped through our little canyon the last few days. We could use some rain, but not the drenching that Seattle received. Our public access road is still closed from the mudslides two years ago, when we got too much rain in too short a period.
Fortunately, the electric industry industry sends checks to me that are a LOT bigger than my checks to them. 'Balance of power' is still in my favor, at least so long as I feel like working.
Mansatory 928 content:
The 928 is sitting in the garage secure, as 80mph winds ripped through our little canyon the last few days. We could use some rain, but not the drenching that Seattle received. Our public access road is still closed from the mudslides two years ago, when we got too much rain in too short a period.
Originally Posted by SharkSkin
This sounds very different from what Chuck's solution was. He was getting full credit for the energy he put back into the grid(since it was slightly less than the total used). I think that if you get into the digital meters that charge you based on when the power is used, and that dual-metering setup you're going to get screwed. If they just read the meter annually & bill you annually you can sidestep all of those games.
12-20-2006, 12:24 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Bob, the solution is easy; once you have your alterante energy source(s) running and they're sufficient for your needs have them disconnect you from the grid.
Our recent winds have pushed most of the snow off the driveway and highways but the 928 (for you Randy) sits secure in the garage; the wind blew 6 semis off the highway recently.
Our recent winds have pushed most of the snow off the driveway and highways but the 928 (for you Randy) sits secure in the garage; the wind blew 6 semis off the highway recently.
