Why 928 Prices Will Continue to Drop
11-12-2006, 05:32 AM
#47
Nordschleife Master
And whats the fun in sanity?
The super high dollar cars are just the tip of the pyramid that is driven by MUCH cheaper cars that are simply that, faster and cheaper than new cars.
If Joe Blow can fix up an old Chevelle for $25k that looks hot and runs 10 second 1/4s, then Joseph Blow needs something to one up that, and the food chain has maybe five steps of I need something more expensive than them.
I suggest the kickoff car for a lot of it were the exCHP Mustangs that sold for $3k with 140k miles but still ran like stink.
928 is just its own little segment someplace in the middle. Take a look around the Rennlist, somebody likes every Porsche ever made, even the old 924. What we all have in common is nothing else does what we want this cheap, even if cheap may not seem very cheap to us.
The super high dollar cars are just the tip of the pyramid that is driven by MUCH cheaper cars that are simply that, faster and cheaper than new cars.
If Joe Blow can fix up an old Chevelle for $25k that looks hot and runs 10 second 1/4s, then Joseph Blow needs something to one up that, and the food chain has maybe five steps of I need something more expensive than them.
I suggest the kickoff car for a lot of it were the exCHP Mustangs that sold for $3k with 140k miles but still ran like stink.
928 is just its own little segment someplace in the middle. Take a look around the Rennlist, somebody likes every Porsche ever made, even the old 924. What we all have in common is nothing else does what we want this cheap, even if cheap may not seem very cheap to us.
11-12-2006, 06:44 AM
#48
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Back to the original post for a sec - where can I find an M3 or M5 for the price of an S4? Really? I'd be in an M5 tomorrow if that was possible, just for the back seats. My S4 is an almost daily driver (I use a motorbike most days for commuting) and as my kids grow up I can see having to sell the S4 to keep the other toy cars. An M5 would be fun!
Ian
Ian
11-12-2006, 10:58 AM
#50
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Yea....but here's another factor....
Admittedly, many want to get "into" a 928 but find the prices daunting. So....we buy a lower priced 928 that's not been kept up, thinking we'll just put some sweat equity in it and have a great and reliable and relatively cheap supercar to drive. As most of us know (except for a lucky few) the purchase price of a 928 is just the beginning of the maintenance expenditures and you're soon have more in the car than you'd ever get out of it. And (psychologically) it's hard to sell at market price when you're in that bind.
So naive buyers get stung and the 928 gets a bad rap.
But how about those who can't afford to buy a pristine car and get their "starter 928"....and pay a reasonable market price for it....and then have to invest a quarter or half as much again of the purchase price in getting it up to a reasonable maintenance level....THEN decide the want a newer model. Now they're faced with taking a financial hosing (i.e., really big loss) on their first 928 because the nature of the market and the nature of 928 maintenance and the price of the original car...so like me, they can't afford to sell their original car w/o taking a hosing so they feel compelled to buy another car at "market price" and start the money pit process all over again in order to have the car they would have wanted to have bought in the first place. If I'd had patience (I don't) and not bought the '85S, nor the 968, nor the Audi TT turbo, I could have bought a nice GTS...hindsight being what it is. So, I take a big loss on the Porsches I own since I've invested way more into them than the market will bring....or I just bite the bullet, sell them at a loss, and buy a newer model that I want. Or hope someone will come along, understand, and pay way more than market for their updated 928...It's possible but not very common. The car has to be really good....and, even then, the seller usually never recaps his expenditures. Tim's recent '88S4 being an example. He sold for higher than listed market...but I'm sure he still took a big hit if you count all that he invested in the car...and it sat on the market for quite a while while all of us drooled over it and knew it was a good deal...then a lucky/savvy buyer bit the bullet and bought it, hoping all the big stuff has been taken care of (and in Tim's case I'm sure that it has been). This whole buying/selling process is a dilemma.
I'm not looking for a GTS...but rather the next step below it...and I want to get a car that someone has already sunk some money into to MINIMIZE the obvious hit I'm going to take by getting another 928. The smaller the chance of big looming expenses, the more attractive the car is to me. 928s aren't usually investment vehicles (except for maybe Lo Miler who has a knack for finding cars and reselling them. I don't have that talent).
Buying and selling is a big dilemma for both many buyers and sellers. It's kinda like catching a wild Schreech Owl with your bar hands...it's easy to grab on...but turning loose is difficult.
Harvey
Admittedly, many want to get "into" a 928 but find the prices daunting. So....we buy a lower priced 928 that's not been kept up, thinking we'll just put some sweat equity in it and have a great and reliable and relatively cheap supercar to drive. As most of us know (except for a lucky few) the purchase price of a 928 is just the beginning of the maintenance expenditures and you're soon have more in the car than you'd ever get out of it. And (psychologically) it's hard to sell at market price when you're in that bind.
So naive buyers get stung and the 928 gets a bad rap.
But how about those who can't afford to buy a pristine car and get their "starter 928"....and pay a reasonable market price for it....and then have to invest a quarter or half as much again of the purchase price in getting it up to a reasonable maintenance level....THEN decide the want a newer model. Now they're faced with taking a financial hosing (i.e., really big loss) on their first 928 because the nature of the market and the nature of 928 maintenance and the price of the original car...so like me, they can't afford to sell their original car w/o taking a hosing so they feel compelled to buy another car at "market price" and start the money pit process all over again in order to have the car they would have wanted to have bought in the first place. If I'd had patience (I don't) and not bought the '85S, nor the 968, nor the Audi TT turbo, I could have bought a nice GTS...hindsight being what it is. So, I take a big loss on the Porsches I own since I've invested way more into them than the market will bring....or I just bite the bullet, sell them at a loss, and buy a newer model that I want. Or hope someone will come along, understand, and pay way more than market for their updated 928...It's possible but not very common. The car has to be really good....and, even then, the seller usually never recaps his expenditures. Tim's recent '88S4 being an example. He sold for higher than listed market...but I'm sure he still took a big hit if you count all that he invested in the car...and it sat on the market for quite a while while all of us drooled over it and knew it was a good deal...then a lucky/savvy buyer bit the bullet and bought it, hoping all the big stuff has been taken care of (and in Tim's case I'm sure that it has been). This whole buying/selling process is a dilemma.
I'm not looking for a GTS...but rather the next step below it...and I want to get a car that someone has already sunk some money into to MINIMIZE the obvious hit I'm going to take by getting another 928. The smaller the chance of big looming expenses, the more attractive the car is to me. 928s aren't usually investment vehicles (except for maybe Lo Miler who has a knack for finding cars and reselling them. I don't have that talent).
Buying and selling is a big dilemma for both many buyers and sellers. It's kinda like catching a wild Schreech Owl with your bar hands...it's easy to grab on...but turning loose is difficult.
Harvey
11-12-2006, 11:11 AM
#51
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Originally Posted by Chazz
I paid less for my '89 S4 a couple of years ago than it would have cost me in depreciation just to drive a new Carrera off the dealer's lot, so I figure if it's resale value goes down, I'm still ahead of the game. Meanwhile I've got a really nice daily driver that, surprisingly, often gets more favorable attention than the hordes of 911s around here. As to maintenance costs, take a look at the forums for cars like the BMW 850 or the Jags.
Harvey
11-12-2006, 11:44 AM
#52
Drifting
Originally Posted by Hughett
Yea....but here's another factor....
Admittedly, many want to get "into" a 928 but find the prices daunting. So....we buy a lower priced 928 that's not been kept up, thinking we'll just put some sweat equity in it and have a great and reliable and relatively cheap supercar to drive. As most of us know (except for a lucky few) the purchase price of a 928 is just the beginning of the maintenance expenditures and you're soon have more in the car than you'd ever get out of it. And (psychologically) it's hard to sell at market price when you're in that bind.
So naive buyers get stung and the 928 gets a bad rap.
But how about those who can't afford to buy a pristine car and get their "starter 928"....and pay a reasonable market price for it....and then have to invest a quarter or half as much again of the purchase price in getting it up to a reasonable maintenance level....THEN decide the want a newer model. Now they're faced with taking a financial hosing (i.e., really big loss) on their first 928 because the nature of the market and the nature of 928 maintenance and the price of the original car...so like me, they can't afford to sell their original car w/o taking a hosing so they feel compelled to buy another car at "market price" and start the money pit process all over again in order to have the car they would have wanted to have bought in the first place. If I'd had patience (I don't) and not bought the '85S, nor the 968, nor the Audi TT turbo, I could have bought a nice GTS...hindsight being what it is. So, I take a big loss on the Porsches I own since I've invested way more into them than the market will bring....or I just bite the bullet, sell them at a loss, and buy a newer model that I want. Or hope someone will come along, understand, and pay way more than market for their updated 928...It's possible but not very common. The car has to be really good....and, even then, the seller usually never recaps his expenditures. Tim's recent '88S4 being an example. He sold for higher than listed market...but I'm sure he still took a big hit if you count all that he invested in the car...and it sat on the market for quite a while while all of us drooled over it and knew it was a good deal...then a lucky/savvy buyer bit the bullet and bought it, hoping all the big stuff has been taken care of (and in Tim's case I'm sure that it has been). This whole buying/selling process is a dilemma.
I'm not looking for a GTS...but rather the next step below it...and I want to get a car that someone has already sunk some money into to MINIMIZE the obvious hit I'm going to take by getting another 928. The smaller the chance of big looming expenses, the more attractive the car is to me. 928s aren't usually investment vehicles (except for maybe Lo Miler who has a knack for finding cars and reselling them. I don't have that talent).
Buying and selling is a big dilemma for both many buyers and sellers. It's kinda like catching a wild Schreech Owl with your bar hands...it's easy to grab on...but turning loose is difficult.
Harvey
Admittedly, many want to get "into" a 928 but find the prices daunting. So....we buy a lower priced 928 that's not been kept up, thinking we'll just put some sweat equity in it and have a great and reliable and relatively cheap supercar to drive. As most of us know (except for a lucky few) the purchase price of a 928 is just the beginning of the maintenance expenditures and you're soon have more in the car than you'd ever get out of it. And (psychologically) it's hard to sell at market price when you're in that bind.
So naive buyers get stung and the 928 gets a bad rap.
But how about those who can't afford to buy a pristine car and get their "starter 928"....and pay a reasonable market price for it....and then have to invest a quarter or half as much again of the purchase price in getting it up to a reasonable maintenance level....THEN decide the want a newer model. Now they're faced with taking a financial hosing (i.e., really big loss) on their first 928 because the nature of the market and the nature of 928 maintenance and the price of the original car...so like me, they can't afford to sell their original car w/o taking a hosing so they feel compelled to buy another car at "market price" and start the money pit process all over again in order to have the car they would have wanted to have bought in the first place. If I'd had patience (I don't) and not bought the '85S, nor the 968, nor the Audi TT turbo, I could have bought a nice GTS...hindsight being what it is. So, I take a big loss on the Porsches I own since I've invested way more into them than the market will bring....or I just bite the bullet, sell them at a loss, and buy a newer model that I want. Or hope someone will come along, understand, and pay way more than market for their updated 928...It's possible but not very common. The car has to be really good....and, even then, the seller usually never recaps his expenditures. Tim's recent '88S4 being an example. He sold for higher than listed market...but I'm sure he still took a big hit if you count all that he invested in the car...and it sat on the market for quite a while while all of us drooled over it and knew it was a good deal...then a lucky/savvy buyer bit the bullet and bought it, hoping all the big stuff has been taken care of (and in Tim's case I'm sure that it has been). This whole buying/selling process is a dilemma.
I'm not looking for a GTS...but rather the next step below it...and I want to get a car that someone has already sunk some money into to MINIMIZE the obvious hit I'm going to take by getting another 928. The smaller the chance of big looming expenses, the more attractive the car is to me. 928s aren't usually investment vehicles (except for maybe Lo Miler who has a knack for finding cars and reselling them. I don't have that talent).
Buying and selling is a big dilemma for both many buyers and sellers. It's kinda like catching a wild Schreech Owl with your bar hands...it's easy to grab on...but turning loose is difficult.
Harvey
Lowmiler meet lowballer
928's are the most underrated exotics bar none. That's right an exotic. It is better than most everything on sale today. The laws of physics have not changed.
11-12-2006, 11:48 AM
#53
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When you can't afford bigger and better, then you need to find ways of appreciating what you have instead of worrying about it depreciating.
A new chevy aveo for $10,000 is real manly...........
.
A new chevy aveo for $10,000 is real manly...........
.
11-12-2006, 02:10 PM
#54
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Hopefully prices will continue to fall so I can fill up my stable with sharks... 
Don't think 928s ever had the cultural impact 60's muscle cars had. I think the rare, low milage cars may appreciate in value as more sharks go to the graveyard, limiting numbers and parts availability. The regular, daily driven models, will level out at some point, with value based hugely on condition. Once parts become scarce, there is a lot of money and more importantly time wasted in tracking them down. That will drive prices for complete cars back up. We're not quit there yet.
I bought my '70 MACHI Mustang in '86 for $1500. Put maybe $10K tops into it. Worth about $80K now. I'm selling it this spring to pay for my oldest daughter starting college. I haven't put more than 100 miles a year on it since the mid '90s. I bought the 928 for fun and to relive my HS days (Dad had an 85 Euro 5 speed when we lived in Germany). To actually drive it. Looking at a second one now, just to have for parts, so I can keep having fun with the first one.
When I decided to get a shark, I never thought about what it would be worth, only what it would cost me to get one and maintain it.
Don't think 928s ever had the cultural impact 60's muscle cars had. I think the rare, low milage cars may appreciate in value as more sharks go to the graveyard, limiting numbers and parts availability. The regular, daily driven models, will level out at some point, with value based hugely on condition. Once parts become scarce, there is a lot of money and more importantly time wasted in tracking them down. That will drive prices for complete cars back up. We're not quit there yet.
I bought my '70 MACHI Mustang in '86 for $1500. Put maybe $10K tops into it. Worth about $80K now. I'm selling it this spring to pay for my oldest daughter starting college. I haven't put more than 100 miles a year on it since the mid '90s. I bought the 928 for fun and to relive my HS days (Dad had an 85 Euro 5 speed when we lived in Germany). To actually drive it. Looking at a second one now, just to have for parts, so I can keep having fun with the first one.
When I decided to get a shark, I never thought about what it would be worth, only what it would cost me to get one and maintain it.
11-12-2006, 04:12 PM
#56
Nordschleife Master
Older cars in many states are smog exempt, in California its limited to 1974 and earlier, and this artificially inflates some of those cars to insane prices. With a 71 Mustang or whatever I can drop in almost a full race engine with totally unobtainable on newer cars, long tube headers, basically a boomers adolescent wet dream. Wow, I remember looking at a Mach 1 with the big block, no AC or even PS I think, setup for FAST, $1500, but I knew that no PS was too hardcore for me. $80k really?
I suggest that is the result of massive numbers of the cars going in the crusher during the 70's and 80's due to mpg, rust, insurance and smog issues. This is simply not the case with the 928 or any other Porsche from the post rust era. 928 have a HUGE buffer of car ownership where cars suitable for a restoration project will not be hard to find for less than $10k for many many years, and there isn't even a good reason to restore when very nice original cars in the most desirable model years are selling for as little as $30k to $60k.
If I am anything close to typical, most people have no idea of what it costs to put things right on an old car, or even what sorts of things might be wrong and needing to be fixed. Or how when you really like a car, you start wanting everything PERFECT, and ***** with worn markings get replaced, and you clean the hinges on the hood with a toothbrush. Even if the make it perfect bug doesn't bite hard, the make it faster one has very long teeth.
I can't believe I am looking seriously at a 83 semi rough 5 spd for $3k or $4k as I type this either. At least it isn't red or black.
I suggest that is the result of massive numbers of the cars going in the crusher during the 70's and 80's due to mpg, rust, insurance and smog issues. This is simply not the case with the 928 or any other Porsche from the post rust era. 928 have a HUGE buffer of car ownership where cars suitable for a restoration project will not be hard to find for less than $10k for many many years, and there isn't even a good reason to restore when very nice original cars in the most desirable model years are selling for as little as $30k to $60k.
If I am anything close to typical, most people have no idea of what it costs to put things right on an old car, or even what sorts of things might be wrong and needing to be fixed. Or how when you really like a car, you start wanting everything PERFECT, and ***** with worn markings get replaced, and you clean the hinges on the hood with a toothbrush. Even if the make it perfect bug doesn't bite hard, the make it faster one has very long teeth.
I can't believe I am looking seriously at a 83 semi rough 5 spd for $3k or $4k as I type this either. At least it isn't red or black.
11-12-2006, 04:22 PM
#57
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Originally Posted by Hughett
I'm not looking for a GTS...but rather the next step below it...and I want to get a car that someone has already sunk some money into to MINIMIZE the obvious hit I'm going to take by getting another 928.
So either sell your fleet to buy what you think you want, or be happy with what is in your garage. Something tells me the moment the three cars you own are gone with a GT in the garage - you'll start a thread about how much you miss the other cars and wish you never would have sold them.
Originally Posted by Hughett
(except for maybe Lo Miler who has a knack for finding cars and reselling them. I don't have that talent).
11-12-2006, 04:29 PM
#58
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My 928 ceased to have any value once I had written the cheque to the PO. The cost is in maintenance, which this year has run to over $5000. I'm not over bothered by this, as most of it was exceptional + I did a lot of work for that money including:
- All belts changed
- New disks + pads F+R
- New Battery
- All wheel alignment done by 928 UK specialist
- New suspension arm gaiter
- New fuel lines
- New handbrake shoes
- 2 new tires
- Flex plate check, oil change, new spark plugs, brake fluid, coolant, diff/autobox oil etc.
The cost of a 928 is the same as the depreciation on a modern box, but for that you get 310 hp and a car that is still an engineering masterpiece today.
The price of the car is at the moment low for what it is. A BMW 850i is rubbish in comparison (driving and rusting) and is not well engineered in comparison. Ditto most really. A 928 does not throw a fit like a carb'd Ferrari, does not overheat, break down etc. Add to that that most are occasional use cars so the electrics are unused for ages, parts of the car not greased etc + I think its a miracle they work as well as they do.
My car had covered 15,000 miles in the last 10 years + I'm now using it as a daily driver. Name another supercar from 20 years ago you'd feel confident of doing that to?
Pricewise, the 928 is a premium product. Cars come in 2 varieties the icon and the throwaway. The 928 is an icon, make no mistake. It was the fastest production car on the planet and cost as much as a house (£70,000 in 1990 was comparable to the average UK house) It starred in films (Risky Business and Scarface spring to mind) as well as being a bedroom poster/calender favourite. Maybe not as much as a Ferrari Testarossa, but up there.
I am able to effectively run mine for $0. The lack of depreciation makes up for the maintenance costs and I know I'd rather have a 928 than a rubbish eurobox.
Car prices are funny things. Anyone remember when a nice Aston DB5 could be had for £10,000 ($20,000)? I do and I'm only 25. That same car would be 15 times that price now to buy.
Personally I think the 928's current price is a travesty, but some cars can be icons and still be low priced. Look at the 70's 911 or the Jaguar E-type. Both can be had for under £20,000 ($40,000) yet they are both amazing cars. I can't put my finger on why a 928 costs $6,000 when a testarossa will be $60,000 and even a comparable F 400i would be $25,000. This cannot last forever.
Whether or not the 928's price moves or not, I care little. I imagine I shall still have mine at 35, maybe 45. It isn't worth selling (to buy a house or an upgrade car) and I need transportation. I'd rather say in ten years time 'I had great fun over the last 10 years driving a classic Porsche' than say 'My new Honda is just like yours isn't it?'
Over the next few years my depreciation money is going to be spent:
- fixing the ABS
- fixing the air conditioning
- adding a supercharger (silence the modern 400hp coupes!)
- repainting it (small amount of aluminium corrosion)
- recovering the drivers seat
- replacing the shocks + springs
- All belts changed
- New disks + pads F+R
- New Battery
- All wheel alignment done by 928 UK specialist
- New suspension arm gaiter
- New fuel lines
- New handbrake shoes
- 2 new tires
- Flex plate check, oil change, new spark plugs, brake fluid, coolant, diff/autobox oil etc.
The cost of a 928 is the same as the depreciation on a modern box, but for that you get 310 hp and a car that is still an engineering masterpiece today.
The price of the car is at the moment low for what it is. A BMW 850i is rubbish in comparison (driving and rusting) and is not well engineered in comparison. Ditto most really. A 928 does not throw a fit like a carb'd Ferrari, does not overheat, break down etc. Add to that that most are occasional use cars so the electrics are unused for ages, parts of the car not greased etc + I think its a miracle they work as well as they do.
My car had covered 15,000 miles in the last 10 years + I'm now using it as a daily driver. Name another supercar from 20 years ago you'd feel confident of doing that to?
Pricewise, the 928 is a premium product. Cars come in 2 varieties the icon and the throwaway. The 928 is an icon, make no mistake. It was the fastest production car on the planet and cost as much as a house (£70,000 in 1990 was comparable to the average UK house) It starred in films (Risky Business and Scarface spring to mind) as well as being a bedroom poster/calender favourite. Maybe not as much as a Ferrari Testarossa, but up there.
I am able to effectively run mine for $0. The lack of depreciation makes up for the maintenance costs and I know I'd rather have a 928 than a rubbish eurobox.
Car prices are funny things. Anyone remember when a nice Aston DB5 could be had for £10,000 ($20,000)? I do and I'm only 25. That same car would be 15 times that price now to buy.
Personally I think the 928's current price is a travesty, but some cars can be icons and still be low priced. Look at the 70's 911 or the Jaguar E-type. Both can be had for under £20,000 ($40,000) yet they are both amazing cars. I can't put my finger on why a 928 costs $6,000 when a testarossa will be $60,000 and even a comparable F 400i would be $25,000. This cannot last forever.
Whether or not the 928's price moves or not, I care little. I imagine I shall still have mine at 35, maybe 45. It isn't worth selling (to buy a house or an upgrade car) and I need transportation. I'd rather say in ten years time 'I had great fun over the last 10 years driving a classic Porsche' than say 'My new Honda is just like yours isn't it?'
Over the next few years my depreciation money is going to be spent:
- fixing the ABS
- fixing the air conditioning
- adding a supercharger (silence the modern 400hp coupes!)
- repainting it (small amount of aluminium corrosion)
- recovering the drivers seat
- replacing the shocks + springs
11-12-2006, 04:57 PM
#59
Nordschleife Master
Its also pointless where "the market price" goes, exceptional cars will demand a premium, and for those who know how to find them, bargains are out there, but real bargains are not going to come and look for you. Real bargains are also going to come with some element of risk, and always slip away quickly if you cannot act immediately.
WTB pristine white 928 87-89 5 spd with roof damage, cash waiting.
WTB pristine white 928 87-89 5 spd with roof damage, cash waiting.
11-12-2006, 05:50 PM
#60
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Interesting thread since I am a recent buyer. 87 S4 5-peed 46K miles, original paint, 100% stock except Autothority chip, exceptionally serviced and maintained with records.
I paid 24K which is considered top dollar, but I feel the overall value of a well maintained 5-speed S4 (with no stories) is worth the premium price-point. Moving forward I know that maintenance costs and continued depreciation will widen my "losses" when I re-sell. For those who are waiting for a phenomenon in the market that will propel the 928 like the muscle cars—never say never but highly unlikely for the next 10-15 years IMO.
Overall, it’s a buyers market and for those who appreciate the car, it's truly one of Porsche's best kept secret.
I paid 24K which is considered top dollar, but I feel the overall value of a well maintained 5-speed S4 (with no stories) is worth the premium price-point. Moving forward I know that maintenance costs and continued depreciation will widen my "losses" when I re-sell. For those who are waiting for a phenomenon in the market that will propel the 928 like the muscle cars—never say never but highly unlikely for the next 10-15 years IMO.
Overall, it’s a buyers market and for those who appreciate the car, it's truly one of Porsche's best kept secret.